Adrienne Zaya

3Very nice to be here, Pulat. Thanks so much for the warm welcome. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat with you today. Love everything that you're doing with the interviews. So as Pulat mentioned, my name is Adrienne. I obtained my law degree from the University of Kent in England. So not your typical career path for a lawyer in Toronto. Upon completing my law degree in England, I always knew that I wanted to come back to the Toronto region. And so that's exactly what I did. It was a bit tricky navigating the legal market, which you kind of touched upon earlier Pulat, and we can dig into that later. But I managed to secure a position at Dentons Canada in Ottawa, and I just recently completed my articles there and have been called to the bar.

5So pre-law school, I had gone to the University of Toronto. I thought that I wanted to be a doctor for some time. And so I enrolled into the life sciences, quickly realized that that lifestyle wasn't for me and switched into psychology. And so I completed a psychology specialist with a biology minor at the University of Toronto.

7For sure. Yeah. So life sciences, I found it to be— I just didn't feel that I would get much satisfaction out of it. A lot of it was, you know, academic and, you know, research-based and a laboratory environment, but I really like interacting with people, so I just didn't feel that it was a good fit. And then the long journey ahead, I didn't— I wasn't interested in getting a PhD, for example, so I just had to shift gears with that growing sense of self-awareness.

9Psychology.

11That's right, yeah, and helping them solve their problems.

13It got me closer to the mark, but I mean, I guess to backtrack a little bit about who I am as a person, I always have been a little bit more entrepreneurial entrepreneurial too. So although I enjoy psychology, I like the people aspect of it, and I could see how I would be helping people from a practical standpoint, I just didn't see how I would be able to also exercise that entrepreneurialism that I had deep within me.

15That comes from— I would attribute that to my parents. So they are immigrants. They came to this country with practically nothing and really made a living for themselves from the ground up. So just watching them do everything that they do day in, day out, and really give everything they've got to give me and my siblings a lifestyle that we have and just to give us opportunities. And things like that. I, you know, I really observed that and took it to heart, and I think that it, by osmosis, kind of, I adopted that entrepreneurialism as well.

17I didn't think that far in advance just because I knew the immediate next steps. I mean, pursuing a career in psychology is, you know, you get your master's and your PhD, and a lot of it is academically, you know, it's based in academia before you actually do get to practice. And, you know, you've got to develop a solid foundation before you do open up your own clinic or something like that. So for those reasons, I just didn't feel it would be a good fit. You know, you'd have to endure a lot of, you know, long hours and a lot of time of just kind of doing research and stuck in the books, you're with your head in the books doing academia before actually jumping into assisting people from a practical standpoint.

19I've thought about it. I feel like that's something that I've always wanted to do. I haven't dreamed what it would look like just yet because I don't know exactly what I would want to do. I'm still learning a lot. I'm still growing a lot. But I do think that that will come in the future sometime. When, I can't say, and what it will be, I'm not entirely sure just yet. But I think I would like to do that.

21So what do you mean by that?

23That makes sense. Yeah, no, it was more of exploration for sure. So I wasn't— I was never someone who always knew, you know, I wasn't born knowing that I want to become a lawyer or anything like that. So I really just kind of went through life's experiences and kept an open mind and was eager to explore different avenues. You know, dipping my foot into different areas of things that I can just get experience and get a feel for what practicing psychology is like, practicing, you know, biology is like, and then kind of taking— drawing on those experiences to kind of formulate the roadmap going forward.

25Yes, yes I did.

27Sure, so again drawing on that that theme that I mentioned of experiencing a bunch of different things and formulating the roadmap going forward and the growing sense of self-awareness, I just thought law would be a great avenue to go down because first of all, it is a business, right? Law firms are businesses at the end of the day. So I would be able to exercise that entrepreneurialism, getting clients and things like that. But also, I do like academia. I do like research. I do like helping people from a practical standpoint, you know, solving their problems. So all of those things combined, it seemed like law would be the perfect avenue to pursue.

29So I had been speaking to a lot of professors at the University of Toronto. I had a lot of great mentors. My older sister too, I should mention. So she was the first one to go to law school, and so she told me how much she enjoyed it, and she told me what her experience was like in law school. And so that prompted me to also pursue law.

31Okay, so the UK— I have always wanted to study abroad. You know, at the University of Toronto, I was very local, so the commute is about 30 minutes, and I've always been close to home. So I thought, you know, if I'm not going to be pursuing school after my, you know, whatever postgraduate degree I get. Now is a chance to study abroad if I want to do that. And so I went for it. I love to travel, so that was definitely a big push in favor of going to the UK. And also, I'm someone who values personal growth. I value that very, very much. And so I thought that by going abroad for the first time, away from my parents, quite a distance away, I'd be a great, great opportunity to learn, get my law degree, which would set me up for a successful career in Toronto as a lawyer, but also just get to experience, experience life, experience another culture, experience people.

32So I really, I'm really glad that I did that.

34Yeah.

36I mean, I think it's difficult just like every other kind of application process. So you apply and hope for the best. I will note that going to law school in the UK, you don't need the LSAT. So, if you can, if that makes it easier, I'm sure it does kind of financially and, you know, you don't have to study for an entry-level exam. So, in that sense, I guess you could say it's easier.

38Right.

40It's pretty hard for me to say. I haven't really spoken too much about what it's like, you know, what law schools in Ontario are like. I do know that there are different methods of exams. Students have to talk about the exams that they had to take, so I do know that, you know, in England it's a closed book exam and you've got to memorize case law and things like that, whereas in Ontario it's an open book method is my understanding. So but I don't know too much about the actual programs and opportunities and, and things like that.

42Yeah, I would say so. I mean, I've realized a lot of similarities when I'm doing research, legal research. I realized that a lot of the law is very similar to that of the UK. And yeah, I mean, the system is of course derived from that of the UK. So it is apparent and it is neat to see kind of our roots. So I really enjoyed that aspect of studying in the UK.

44Yes.

46Oh, for sure. I mean, as you mentioned, Carbolic Smoke Ball is one of them. A lot of contract type cases. There was one. The name is escaping me. It's the classic one with the snail. The Snail and the Ginger Beer. It's a contracts law case.

48So

50I.

52I think, and I think yes, in the same way that students are in Ontario. So opportunities to moot, for example so through extracurriculars, like, you get that very, very on-point experience.

54I did see the inside of a court, yes, I did.

56So they do have their wig-wearing tradition, but the court itself, I mean, it's very similar. It's very similar, I would say, yeah.

58Really?

60Yeah.

62I mean, that's definitely an interesting point to raise, that it levels the playing field. I think it might. And I mean, it's kind of nice to see that the traditions are still being maintained. I personally like the whole robing, so I would be sad to see that go. That's my take on it.

64No, so mine was administrative, unfortunately, so I didn't get a ceremony, which I'm pretty sad about. Yeah, I think that they're going— they're saying that they're going to try to have one once kind of the coast is clear, but I'm not going to hold my breath. I'll just kind of continue.

66I

68Right.

70So I took those at the beginning of my articles. So

72Yeah, yeah.

74Yeah, COVID was peaking, and it was It was definitely, I mean, a little bit scary. It was, I mean, we've never really experienced anything like this where the entire globe really just shuts down. So it was a bit daunting kind of heading into that type of environment. But me, I mean, I'm personally kind of a grand optimist. So I didn't let it kind of get to me too much. I just kind of continued as soon as I finished my articles. You know, I sought out my first-year associate position, so I just kind of kept going. But, you know, it is a tricky time to navigate, and the great thing is that we're all in this together, so it's not like there's any one person who's kind of disadvantaged by this.

75We're all in it together, we're all a support system. It's important that we stick together and give each other encouraging advice. The bar has been really great too, so I've reached out to a lot of lawyers, yourself included, Pulat, and you've been super kind and giving me advice and tidbits that, you know, I can kind of implement into what I'm doing in my job search strategy and just how to kind of keep on top of case law and keep developing upon my skill set and experience that I developed during my articles.

77So, as I alluded to before, it definitely was tricky. It was more difficult, you know, coming out of an Ontario law school. You have the advantage of having had the opportunity to network with, you know, your professors who also are practicing lawyers, and they can attest to your ability and things like that. There's also the resources, for example, the on-campus interviews, So you have a whole bunch of resources when you go to law school in Ontario. And so as soon as I came back, I realized that, and so I set out to establish my own set of resources. So I started networking, I started meeting people, I'm getting advice as to where I can look to find job opportunities and articling positions and things like that.

78I drew upon, again, my mentors. They really assisted me with, you know, the whole cover cover letter writing process, how to fix up my resume so that it's in accordance with what some of these big Bay Street firms are looking for. So it really was a lot of groundwork, or grunt work, I should say, a lot of grunt work and just kind of trying to pull upon all your resources and, and finding new ones and, and yeah, just never giving up really. So you You have to be ready to face a lot of nos, which I certainly did. I have Excel spreadsheets of just no, no, no written across them, just keeping tabs on my efforts in managing and landing an articling position.

79But yeah, I think, I think persistence pays and hard work certainly pays. And you just kind of can't get discouraged too easily. You have to keep plowing forward if you know what you want. And that's really how I ultimately ended up articling at Dentons.

81Yeah,

83Okay, so there's really no secret weapon. I mean, I just kind of would cold email and cold— I wouldn't cold call, I would cold email first and try to set up a phone call. So sometimes lawyers would get back, sometimes they don't. But that's okay because the ones that do get back to you, those are the ones that you, you know, you go on to set up a phone call with and ask them for advice and just, again, learn about their insights and how you can kind of improve what you're doing to help you secure an articling position.

85Oh my goodness. I, I don't know. I don't even have a ballpark number. So when I came back, I was applying before I was ready. I should mention that. And what I mean by that is that I came back and I had to do my NCA exams. The National Committee on Accreditation. They administer exams. I had 7 of them. And so I figured that— I mean, I guess maybe I have to backtrack a little bit. So England, law school in England is 2 years. I came back after having done 2 years and then I had to do my NCA exams. So I figured that I was the equivalent of a 2L in Ontario. I think that's what that would be called.

86And so I was applying for 2L positions, articling positions, because I know they recruit a year in advance. So I was throwing myself at almost every opportunity, trying to see, you know, where, where I would fit. So it's kind of a gauging process to, to see where I would fit. Would I be an articling— would I fit into the articling recruit or the summer student recruit? So I was doing a bit of that. Does that answer your question?

88Yes.

90Again, it's hard to say. There's no real recipe. I mean, you, you reach out to people and you speak with them, and then you It's just a matter of how much you click with the person and how, you know, you, you encounter some people who are really willing to go above and beyond. Some people might say, you know, feel free to send me your cover letter. I'll have a look at it and I'll, you know, I'll get back to you. And so you do that. And

92Essentially. I mean, I never asked anyone to review my cover letter. I was too hesitant to to go that far. I was appreciative of just the call.

94No, so I never explicitly— I don't think I ever really, you know, said you are my mentor to anyone. I think it just, it's an informal mentorship. So mentors can be formal, you know, there are a lot of organizations that have like a formal structure where you can sign up and be assigned to a mentor. But a lot of it is more informal. So I would say all the mentors that I have have been informal. And I consider them to be mentors, whether they consider me to be their mentee or not, I'm not sure, but—

96Oh boy I would say, so to begin, before articling, I would say I had 2 and that's being very—

98No, I would say conservative with conservative. Okay, yeah, yeah. So I would say 2, 2 that I really had. Coming out of articles though, I mean, I feel like everyone at the firm was really great, so I feel like I can draw upon any of them to to give me advice. So I feel like all of them are really my mentors. I mean, I still keep in touch with them to this day and I know that I will continue to keep in touch. So I was able to form really good relationships but so yeah, I feel like maybe that is more on the liberal side, but before I was more conservative with the two mentors.

100I don't with any of my mentors, no. So I just kind of take it upon myself to touch base with them, let them know where, you know, where I'm at or where I'm headed or kind of what's going on in my life. I feel like that's the best approach just because, I mean, if you schedule something, if you don't have anything to really update on, it's kind of inefficient in that way. But I think it's important to, you know, take that initiative to reach out to your mentors, let them know where you're at, and then also add a note to say, I'll let you know, I'll touch base in the coming weeks to let you know, you know, how things go, or if, you know, if you're, let's say, interviewing or something like that.

102Yeah,

104mean, that's, that's a good question. So I think the people that I've come across have been the, you know, they have just been happy to give back because they are the ones who have also been in my shoes and have drawn upon their own mentors. And so they know what it's like. And so I, I don't get the sense at all that they feel burdened. And I think, you know, you have to be cautious when kind of thinking that you're burdening someone because some people are genuinely super, super happy to chat whenever and ready and willing to hop on a call whenever you need it. So I've never felt personally burdened.

106I

108I say they're all over. I say they're all over, and I think that's important to have a little bit of diversity too, because you have, let's say, maybe mentors in there who are, you know, 20 years out of practice, and they can tell you things that you wouldn't be able to foresee given your, your current situation or the stage that you're at. And then it's good too to have people who are in the same boat as you, who can tell you how they are navigating a particular situation that may be of direct relevance to you.

110I would say so, yeah, for sure. There's no reason that they can't be.

112I mean, they give you really great advice. Again, as I mentioned before, so they could be people who are 20 years out and they can tell you what they would do if they were in your shoes, or, you know, they think back to, oh, when I was your age, I wish I had known this, or I wish I had known that. And so it's helpful to kind of learn through other people's experiences so that you don't have to go through the same type of thing and experience the same type of maybe it's a failure or maybe it's a not so great career choice or something like that.

114Maybe. I'm not sure. I'm very Type A and I do like to, I mean, I set my sights high and I have pretty focused tunnel vision when I want something.

116Yeah, I mean, I've always been conscious about what I'm eating. So nutrition has always been pretty, pretty big to me. And exercise has always been something that I valued a lot. I've, you know, recently during the quarantine discovered running. So I fell in love with running and I really realized the therapeutic effects. It clears your mind. You think about problems better. So I'll do that first thing in the morning and it'll just set the tone for the rest of the day and I feel amazing going forward and, you know, I'm ready to tackle whatever task is ahead of me for the day.

118That's right, yeah.

120Thanks so much, Pulat. I really enjoyed our conversation today. Great way to start off a Friday. So thank you so much for the experience, and hopefully we can chat again soon.