Caryma Sa'd

2Hi, thank you so much for having me.

4I, I'm in the city, I loved it there.

6I was born and raised in Mississauga, so part of my motivation in going to Ottawa was getting far enough that, you know, I would be— there's no question about it, I have to live on campus, I can't commute 6 hours a day. So that was one aspect of it, but really I had been doing French immersion from kindergarten and Ottawa U was one of the few universities that offered French sort of as a component to the degree, and they were quite flexible in the way that students can do that. So I was able to sort of select the courses that I felt comfortable with in French and kept it up. And the city itself, of course, being so close to Quebec and being the capital, lots of opportunities to practice kind of on a day-to-day basis.

7So So that's how I ended up in Ottawa. And then I stayed there because I just really loved the city. I liked the people, I liked sort of the flow of things. And Ottawa U, of course, has, I think, a great representation, obviously lots of interesting people coming out of there. And I signed up for the joint JD/MA program. So I wasn't really sure about law, and figured that would be a way to kind of get the best of both worlds. As it turned out, the law side is, is more what, what sort of drove my career path.

9I liked that it was an interdisciplinary program, so I think maybe one of the themes in my career trajectory is indecisiveness and kind of wanting to experience different things because I'm not 100% sure about jumping into any one pond. And so that degree was a mix of economics, history, political science, and of course the international development aspect. Throughout high school, and maybe even earlier than that, sort of social justice and global issues were always on my radar. And so I thought that this would be a good entry point, maybe You know, when I initially started, I had fantasies of ending up at the UN and was quickly disillusioned from that career path. But it's actually how I also ended up wanting to do law, because in my third year, I did an internship abroad.

10And I was placed in India at an organization called the Human Rights Law Network. And That was my first exposure to lawyers. And I mean, obviously I had seen lawyers in the media. I didn't know any in real life. And the type of work that they were doing really aligned with my interests. And they were doing sort of individual cases and making a difference for those clients, but also doing broader public interest stuff. You know, one thing that really struck, struck me and stuck with me, one of the lawyers there, she, she explained how she ended up doing law. It was because she wanted to know how the system works in order to affect change within the system.

11And I think my views on that have evolved a fair bit since that internship experience, but it holds true that everything we do is affected by law in some way or another. So I knew that law school and the way that it trains people to think would be sort of the transferable skill and a tangible skill that, while my degree in international development equipped me with a lot of analytical thinking and all that fun stuff, I couldn't really say that I had a particular skill set. And so that's how I ended up doing law.

13Very much so. So

15Well, I wrote about a situation of ethnic cleansing that occurred in Gujarat. So a pogrom in 2002, I guess. And so disclaimer, I actually, I finished the dissertation, I never presented it. The research material, like, I, it really affected me in like a really deep way. And I ended up just not following through with it because the material was so heavy. So I talked about how sort of sexual violence was, was a tool, a specific tool that the government used, and how they— there was like themes of nationalism and the use of religious iconography and how that sort of framed people's thinking. And so, and then connected it to the idea of restorative justice.

16And after sort of a scenario of ethnic cleansing among neighbors where, you know, there are all sorts of theories and explanations how the violence came to pass. And of course, the man who was at the head of the state is now the Prime Minister of India, and that was something that was happening at the same time as well, and that was just the most disheartening thing. So yeah, it was— I pulled together all sorts of ideas, and it's actually a really fascinating paper if anyone ever wants to read it. And I got to swear a fair bit in the title and just generally, so that was maybe an outlet. But it infused sort of idea of art and how, you know, from a constructivist perspective, how what we're presented with and what people consume, how that affects thinking and then actions.

17And it's been sort of a trip watching, you know, what's happening in the United States because there are a lot of similarities and parallels that can be drawn from sort of the use of propaganda and how that translates into actual physical violence. So, you know, to sum it up, the basic idea was that ideas shape actions, which is a very, you know, obvious thought. But I really delved into the patterns and how that happened.

19That was another disillusioning part of writing that paper. And in fact, in many of the cases of the most extreme violence, it ended up being the victims who were jailed because they either recanted their stories or You know, I won't delve into the specifics here, but it had a very perverse effect. And what did become clear is that sort of systems and institutions, you know, they're only as good as— sorry, that's my cat— they're only as good as we maintain them and keep them and the people that we put in those positions of power. So I wouldn't discount law as a solution, but certainly the way that we conceptualize sort of a carceral system or a retribution-based system of punishment, when you have that level of violence and it's between neighbors, you know, I don't think that criminal law is the solution or the answer.

21My expectations were shaped in large part by Legally Blonde, so I will say that it didn't live up to everything I hoped for, but I enjoyed my time in law school overall. And, you know, a benefit of being at Ottawa U was just the wide selection of courses that were available. So again, I got to dip my toes in various fields. My experience was a little bit disjointed because of the MA, so I started with one cohort and then graduated with another, and, you know, so that maybe shaped my experience a little bit. And I will say, when you stay in the same city that you did your undergrad in, I guess I thought that in some ways it made the transition smoother.

22I didn't have to move or learn a new city, But a lot of sort of the routines and friends that I had from undergrad, you know, they moved back to Toronto or they moved elsewhere. So it was a weird sense of it being familiar but then also very different. So that was— I mean, I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change it at all.

24You know, I, I like the way that you phrase that. Yeah. I mean, I guess obviously my time there was limited to summer and articling, but I had exposure to some of the best litigators. In Canada, you know, and even in the most recent Canadian Law Awards, they were recognized as the top litigation boutique, and that's not the first or the last time that they will get those kinds of accolades. So I was so fortunate to be in that kind of environment, just sort of soaking in the knowledge.

26That's not— that's a fair question. I guess it would come down to sort of strategy and tying that to client objectives, because there may be sort of a legal route to pursue, and that might be a tried and true method. But really listening to client objectives, because sometimes they're not looking for kind of the legal outcome. There are, I wouldn't say collateral interests, but it might not be purely based on the court outcome. And so being sensitive to that and attuned to that, I think, is super important, and it's been something that I carry into my own practice today.

28It turns out I don't really like civil or commercial litigation. So the stakes are high, obviously, as far as as far as monetary considerations go. But it wasn't something that I felt connected to in a way that drives me. And so criminal law and housing law, which is sort of the offshoot and my main area of focus now, you know, the impacts are very real on people's lives. And that drives me, that fuels me.

30It's a good question. I don't know that I was ready to be in a firm environment. And if I were to do things, you know, my original sort of life plan definitely did have me at a firm for an extended period of time to learn more and observe more and all of that, have that mentorship. But truthfully, I spent a few months after articles contemplating whether law was really the path that I wanted to pursue. So again, that indecisiveness, and I spent time in courtrooms just hanging out, observing, watching litigators at work, and, you know, through that made some connections, you know, friends in the lawyers' lounge, so to speak, and someone actually referred a case to me, and I didn't have a firm at the time.

31I wasn't really looking, And I just had this landlord-tenant matter plopped in my lap and I said, okay, let's give it a go. And I liked it. I liked being in charge of the file and having access to mentors, but ultimately at the end of the day, it's my decision-making. And, you know, maybe that's a lust for power, I don't know, but I liked it. And The advantage, I think, and sort of how my career is playing out so far, that autonomy means that I really get to be authentic in how I present myself and what I do and the clients I work with and the clients I don't work with and, you know, what I get to say about myself on social media or otherwise.

32And that's something that understandably, you have to give up some of that autonomy when you're in a firm environment because you're not just thinking about yourself. So that once I started on that path, it was like a, I guess, a rock kind of rolling down and just gaining momentum. And I know I haven't stopped yet. But, you know, things always change, circumstances change. So I'm not discounting that possibility in the future, but for right now, I'm having a good time.

34I didn't realize this was going to be so soul-searching. Well, okay, so on the one hand, sort of having real tangible consequences arising out of a case where, you know, not to say that money's not real, but in a lot of ways money's not real, but someone's liberty or someone's housing or someone's ability to stay in their community or their city, that's very real to me. And so making those connections with people, you know, that's something that fuels me. I will also say that kind of on maybe a— in a bigger picture sense, my experiences with clients give me insight and perspective into public policymaking. And having been in Ottawa, always in the back of my mind was floating the idea of working in policy, sort of designing the rules that shape how we function.

35And I haven't actually ever worked for government, but it turns out that critiquing policy is even more fun. So that is something that I enjoy doing and has become a very important part of my practice. So acknowledging when things are done right, but also being a voice to either sound the alarm or raise just concerns about decisions that are impacting people. And, you know, I get to see on the ground how that actually plays out and then make my case through the media. So media has been an important part of my work.

37I like that charitable interpretation, and I'm going to roll with that. That's great. I think through my marketing is probably the number one way that I get to express myself as who I am. So I mean, it started with something small, my business card that has my face on it and, you know, it's a cartoonified version of myself and, you know, give it to you and okay, you're gonna remember hopefully who I am and what I do and if you need me for that purpose, you'll give me a call. And then that kind of, that grew because I was able to connect with someone who who could take my ideas and then translate them into exactly what I was envisioning into art.

38And so that started with a comic series like Landlord Tenant 101, where it was just expressing basic rules that everyone, landlords, tenants, should be aware of in a way that I think was accessible to people. And this has really— it's like an extension of the work that I've always done, and access to information as a means to access to justice. I mentioned that I was with the Human Rights Law Network. One of the projects I'm most proud of is we created a cartoon, like a comic book, that explained the recent domestic violence legislation. And so that was back in like 2010, 2011, and I sort of shelved the idea, but in my mind always thought about art as a means of sort of conveying information.

39And that's something that I was able to do because I could say, okay, my firm is gonna allocate resources for this purpose. And it's providing content and value to people. And if it takes off, great. If it doesn't, at least it's something that I wanted to do and I can say I'm proud of. So I think that that's probably the main way that that's manifested. And, you know, being on my own also allowed me when the Bencher election, you know, was happening in 2019, I was able to say, okay, I'm gonna give it a go. And that's maybe not something that I would have had the flexibility luxury of doing in a firm environment.

40But because I managed my caseload, I was able to reduce it to some extent and focus on that task at hand. And I think that even though it didn't pan out, and I'm not on convocation, the, the connections and friendships that I made throughout that process were so significant, and really make the law world a friendlier place for me. So, I mean, a difficulty has always been finding my place in law and finding somewhere that I fit in. But it turns out you can actually just sort of carve your own space, and then the people who are like-minded and who are supportive of that will find you and will help boost you. So that's been sort of a, like, a pleasantly surprising aspect.

41Of the law world. I think we're frequently portrayed as being super competitive and very cutthroat, and that's probably true to some extent, but it hasn't been my only experience in law.

43I mean, I have to have some trade secrets. So I'm not the illustrator. I'm the conceptualizer and the writer and art director. And I outsource that work within my office. So I'm so fortunate to be surrounded by talented people. And that's probably you know, the number one piece of advice I could ever give. Just surround yourself with smart people and good things will happen. Because if you are insistent on being the smartest person in the room, you know, that's maybe good for the ego, but not good for your growth. And just circling back to kind of lessons from Lenczner, and that was one of them. Like, you're in a room of pure brilliance, and like, it just— it's humbling but also inspiring, and that's something that I've carried on and just always making an effort to connect with people who are bright.

45I want to say that that was my idea. And I mean, that's how the Human Rights Law Network, like, domestic violence comic series came about. But, you know, it was something I wanted to do right from the start, hence my business card, and it took several years to get off the ground. So you know, the person I'm working with now was not the first person. I went through many, many people who I sort of tried to build that connection with, and, you know, it didn't quite produce the results I wanted. So that's always— I mean, I wouldn't say that I set out in law in order to make law comics, but it was a very natural extension for me because I've always loved art and art in many forms, but visual art in particular.

47It it was similar in the sense that it kind of broke down step by step step, sort of, you know, what is the eligibility? Who is covered by this act? What must you do in order to avail yourself of rights? What types of rights might you be entitled to? And where do you go to access that? So those were the basic topics that were covered in the comic series. And, you know, the idea there was that literacy was often a barrier to people kind of accessing information, right? So pamphlets that were heavy in writing weren't necessarily useful to the target demographic. So I mean, even like, it's very hard to get away with no writing when you're dealing with a legal issue.

48And, you know, a limitation of comics is that there's only so much nuance that you can introduce. And obviously when you're actually applying a law, there's 100 what-ifs and depends on and so on, so forth. So I mean, it's not a perfect medium, but literacy issues were actually the— what sparked that particular idea. And now I would say that You know, there's also— and I'm not a scientist or a sociologist, so take this with a lump of salt, but speaking to my own experience, like my attention span isn't always great. And it's maybe because we're constantly saturated with information and, you know, coming at us from all angles. So I find that drawing or comics are a way to sort of get a point across in a way that is digestible compared to maybe a lengthy blog post or something along those lines.

49And I've tried blogging as well, and I have blogs that accompany comics in order to get that nuance across. But kind of being mindful of who my target demographic is, if art speaks to them or they can get the necessary information, then we're in good shape and I've done my job.

51It's a good question. So my, my mom is of Indian descent so prior to my undergrad experience I had traveled to India twice and like thoroughly enjoyed myself in that experience and, and we did sort of like a road trip across, you know, well, not the whole country, it's too big, but, you know, across a good chunk of it. And I really fell in love with everything. There's so much culture, like a richness of culture, of history, and the way that people sort of receive you, like the sense of community. And I'll, like, just an example, you know, in Canada, it's kind of inconceivable that you would have a family with a young child taking a trip on the VIA Rail, and then both parents ask a stranger like, hey, can you watch my kid for a few minutes?

52I'm just gonna go like, whatever. And that was so normal there. And in a way where it was kind of I wouldn't say like a naive trust in people, right? Like, you're maybe triangulating and asking more than one person, but like that willingness. And here, I think, you know, it would be seen as a pure liability and like, no, I'm not watching your kid. Like, watch your own kid. I'm going to call CAS right now. And that's not the attitude there. So that's just like one example out of a million examples of sort of the— I just a sense of community that, you know, and I don't want to romanticize or glamorize because obviously there are sort of other issues, but I liked that culture.

53And so when I was sort of narrowing my options and choices for, you know, where I would like to go, that was like top on the list because I feel like a personal connection to the country.

56I think how to do it right is the sort of operative question there, because it really depends on context. And so For example, like I, throughout law school, I was a waitress. And, you know, one of the most grating questions was, where are you from? Oh, I'm from Mississauga, but, you know, I moved to Ottawa for school. No, like, where are you really from? And okay, there's a lot of assumptions that are packed into that seemingly innocent question. In contrast to where you're building a relationship with someone that's more maybe long-term, And part of that inquiry is, "Oh, okay, you're from Mississauga, cool. You know, what's your cultural background?" Or, you know, and again, even that question can be loaded.

57So it depends, like, you know, when is it being asked? Why is it being asked? Is it in sort of a casual conversation? Is it where there's give and take? What's the power dynamic in that question being asked? Has the asker themselves maybe revealed something of their own background? And perhaps that's a better introduction than just peppering someone with questions, sort of assuming that they can't be Canadian because, you know, brown people have been in Canada since like the 1800s, right? Not my family in particular, but, you know, there's many multi-generational people of Indian descent. So I think that it can be done right. And I do believe that there's potential value depending on how the information is used, right?

58If it's a way to build camaraderie or understanding, that's a good thing. If you then are making assumptions, oh, she's Muslim, so she's not even going to be allowed to shake my hand. You know, so it's— I don't know that there's a right answer, but certainly things should be done in a way that's not just tactful but also kind of sensitive and not in a way that makes someone feel like an outsider. But by the same token, right, oh, she's Muslim, maybe that means that I'm not just going to have alcohol at this reception, I'm going to have non-alcoholic options too. And then, you know, she may or may not drink, I don't know.

59And, you know, so it can be useful. Yeah, I think it can be useful, but it just has to be done properly. And that can be a landmine to navigate. But I think that as long as someone is receptive to being sort of gently called out, or maybe not so gently, depending on who you cross, but at least open to amending their path or correcting course, you know, no harm, no foul.

61I honestly, I often say Toronto, but have been like blasted for that because I know it's not true. And that's why I went to Ottawa. So I mean, I was upfront, I was upfront, I had to get away.

65So I think, I mean, the first thing I'll say is that you know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? So good intentions aren't determinative of impact, and I think that impact matters more than intention. So my, my suggestion is that people approach things that they don't know with humility and sort of a willingness to, to learn and to be corrected and not to get your back up, because you may have had good intentions and maybe that landed flat and didn't, you know, it didn't achieve the objective that we were hoping for. But it doesn't mean you give up and retreat and now there is no point in trying to communicate with anyone who isn't like me because I got burned that one time.

66I think it's a willingness to be corrected. And, you know, for myself, you know, I don't think anyone is born sort of perfect and savvy in that way. So humility is important in a lot of interactions. And, you know, what I learned in high school and maybe undergrad compared to in law school and then in real life about Indigenous people and sort of the many nations that exist and Even like the nomenclature, getting a hang of that. And, you know, how do you respectfully sort of ask some, like, how, how, how do you broach that when there's, you know, such a loaded history? And I get it wrong sometimes. But, you know, a willingness to be corrected and to learn.

67And I think, you know, nowadays, there's no— like, ignorance isn't as valid an excuse because we have sort of the world of information at our fingertips. So one thing that has been helpful for me is when I am mindful that I don't know something, or, you know, there are, yeah, issues that I just am not attuned to or familiar with, Twitter for me has been an excellent tool in terms of following people who are maybe from that, like, from different nations. So just back to Indigenous people. So getting like a range and diversity of perspectives, but then not sort of jumping into conversations and saying, "Hey, can you explain this for me?" Like Googling it yourself, right?

68And being more of a listener and not having to center yourself and your feelings because that's not actually what is always the most important thing. So recognizing that and then just being willing to be an observer and not the one who is the center of attention, whether or not that is your intent. Again, impact over intent. So I think that there's, you know, if someone's concerned about, you know, issues of diversity and how do I navigate this without offending anybody, like follow and listen and learn and be mindful of whose voices you're listening to and get as wide a range as possible. And you might not agree with every perspective, and that's okay because there's diversity within diversity, right?

69Like there's no monolithic group, but being sort of willing to challenge your own assumptions, I think, is invaluable. And you're right that a lot of people will shy away from that complexity and it is what it is. But the, the benefits of engaging and pushing yourself and pushing those comfort boundaries, I think, is, you know, impossible to, to overstate.

72it? I mean, I guess I don't know that I have the data to sort of answer one way or another, but I think there's probably a distinction between nurturing one's own culture and community through sort of gatherings that are kind of your space and that are familiar and maybe nostalgic, but also renewing. And there are spaces that aren't meant for everybody to be a part of that space, right? And I think that that's okay. But where there's maybe more of a problem is if you are exclusively interacting, you know, within that bubble. It goes back to what you were saying earlier on, that you lose sight of the fact that things you take for granted as sort of natural truths, you know, that that's not the case for everyone.

73So I mean, it's really limiting your own exposure and growth. And without a doubt, I've been very fortunate and I'm well positioned to sort of have this conversation that we're having and Still, I get it wrong sometimes. So, I mean, probably many times. So, you know, I don't think that the standard is perfection. It can't be. But going back to sort of a willingness to learn and to be corrected, that's all really anyone can ask. And I know that just in my own experiences, You know, sometimes people will be quick to call for a cancellation, so to speak, right? And you did that, and so that's bad, and you know, you're not a good person anymore.

74And I think that that's unhelpful and counterproductive. But you know, you will, you will never please everyone all of the time. It's impossible. So I mean, a focus on kind of your immediate surroundings and making sure that the people you are interacting with are, you know, happy to interact with you. And if they're not, like, is there— what should I be doing differently? And, and kind of not assuming that— not making assumptions and just asking questions. So I mean, I think anyone and everyone is equipped to ask questions and, you know, It's maybe more of a skill to discern like when it's appropriate to ask those questions versus like using Google, because a lot can be achieved through Google.

75We have that advantage over previous generations for sure. Yeah, I, I mean, I don't know if that answers the question, but it's not impossible to navigate. And I mean, formal education sure is, is helpful in some respects, but in others I can see that it in itself becomes sort of a barrier because, well, I'm educated, so I know this, and, you know, you get entrenched in your positions. So yeah, you know, there's people from like small town rural Canada who, you know, are some of my favorite people to interact with. So I don't think that it's necessarily a cosmopolitan thing either. Like, and you know, it's not just race or culture, right? There's all sorts of divisions like class.

76What's your socioeconomic background? What's your family structure? Like so many things, you know, did you grow up in an apartment or a house or a farm? And like that changes sort of your own experience, right? Like I, you know, I didn't have to do the types of chores that someone growing up on a farm would have to do. Like, and, you know, I don't know where I'm going with this, but the point being you know, it's just like, we can— I don't want to do like a kumbaya, like it's not maybe that simple but I'll repeat that approaching things with a humility and just a willingness to learn I think that that goes a very, very long way.

78Oh, it's a deal for sure. This was like This is fascinating. A morning reflection I didn't expect to have, but like, this is a very stimulating conversation. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

80Thank you so much.