Justin Nasseri

2I'm very well, Pulat. Thank you so much for having me. How are you doing?

4It's a very kind description, and I'll take it. But no, I, I think it is fair because it's funny, and for audience members, you know, who may think that that was scripted, you've never said that to me before in any of our conversation. And, and yet that's a word I've used in, in talking about my ambitions with friends and mentors, my parents. It's, it's been for a long time, I want to build a really great firm with a particular kind of culture. So I think that is fair.

6Yes.

8So that's kind of you saying— I, I was just gonna say, I mean you know, it's, it's, it's generous to, to, to sort of give me the title of co-founder and, and And I think I've helped Mark do some pretty great things together this year. But you talk about a builder, Mark, from brick by brick over the course of 15 years, built a great firm in Ross Barristers. And it was a really nice environment to come and slide into and help do some things with him. So,

10Sure. So I was born in Calgary. My parents were originally from Iran. My dad was from Esfahan, my mom was from Tehran. They were not going to go back to Iran after the revolution in the late '70s. So they ended up in Calgary where I was born. I think when I was around 4, we moved to Edmonton and that's where I ended up growing up for most of my life. So I actually went to the same high school as Ranjan, Old Scona. I was one of those weird kids where I think I was 12 or 13 and I'd made up my mind, I want to be a lawyer. I want to be a courtroom lawyer, a litigator.

11And even more so, with all due respect to Edmonton, I wanted to leave Alberta. I knew I wanted to come to Toronto. So that was sort of the goal. From 13 on. I went to high school there, I went to undergrad there, and then I came out here for law school, really fell in love with the city, and I've never even considered leaving since then.

13That's an interesting question. You know, and this will maybe give you some insight into how much of a planning nerd I was. I, you know, I was interested in sort of political science, but when I was— I was already scoping out things like law school admissions, and I'd gotten a lot of advice from people who'd been around the block who said, you know, make sure your program is challenging, make sure you've got a lot of upper-level courses throughout your undergraduate because law schools in Ontario are going to look at that. And they're going to value that whether it's Osgoode or Queen's or U of T or Western. So I thought, well, if I want to sort of, you know, in terms of challenging courses, the economics courses were challenging, they were going to keep my quantitative skills sharp.

14So I double majored in econ and poli sci, and I sort of stuck with it.

16Yeah,

18Yeah, yeah, you're— so just, just to confirm, you're, you're quite correct. And in fact, my, my parents were, were not the most outgoing either. You know, my dad is an intellectual intellectual. He likes to sit with a cup of tea and read 5 books at the same time. I'm not even kidding. He's always got 5 books on the go. Not a guy that goes to parties, never hung out, doesn't drink, doesn't socialize. You know, mom, same thing, sort of keeps things close to the chest. They enjoy their company, but they don't go out a lot.

20Of course. Of course. But they know, they, you know but I had the social bug from, from very early on. I, I liked talking to my peers. I, I think I started running in school elections in junior high. There was just something about, about interacting, but also learning people's stories that I like. And, and I'm not kidding, I think that was a big part of what drove me to retail. I worked a lot of retail jobs in high school and undergrad, and that's sort of where I developed a big part of my professional network. The other was just my friend's parents. Like my best childhood friend Sonny, his dad came from India.

21You've heard the story, $10 in his pocket. He becomes the number one salesman for a certain product in Canada. He capitalizes on that to open businesses. He trades stocks. The guy's up at 4:00 AM. He was an entrepreneur. I used to spend a lot of time at Sonny's house talking to his dad, just absorbing things from him. He would introduce me to other people, colleagues of his. So there was that sort of thing. And then through the retail jobs, I sold menswear, high-end menswear, at a store called Henry Singer, similar to Harry Rosen. I would meet lawyers, I would meet other professionals, physicians, engineers, you name it. And I would just talk to these people.

22I'd get an idea of their story. Some of the lawyers would let me come and shadow at court. So that, that's sort of how I developed my network and sort of people that I could seek out and get advice from.

24No, I did apply to Osgoode. I, I applied, bro. I even applied to to, to, to sort of schools on, on the West Coast because, you know, you never know what's going to happen. And I knew I wanted to go to law school in Canada, but I, I applied very broadly and I did apply to Osgoode.

26No, so Toronto as a city was certainly everything that I thought it would be. I I, I fell in love with the city within a week, and I've only come to love it more with every— it's been over a decade now I've lived here. I consider myself a, you know, a Toronto citizen, if you will. The law school, you know, there were things that I expected that, that certainly were, were true. There were other things that maybe were not in line with expectation. I think that for one thing, the, you know, I was on, I was involved in student politics at U of T, and as you can imagine, and you've seen this, sometimes the student politicians will butt heads with faculty about the direction the law school is going in, or how much attention is diverted to student support versus just focusing on publishing.

27So there were things like that that were eye-opening for me, or sometimes you could even say disillusioning. But the city, I loved it and still do.

29Certainly. So, you know, if, if you are interested in, in giving big law a shot or trying it, or maybe you just want to put in a few years to pay off your debts, there could be any number of reasons. That you're interested by, you're going to go through what's called an OCI process, on-campus interview. And those interviews are early on in your second year law school, they're in the fall. They are— the process as a whole is really comprised of two big stages. You know, you put your applications into these law firms, which will be a cover letter, a CV, your transcripts. You can apply very broadly, you can apply more selectively.

30Usually at the first step you want to apply more broadly, and then you'll find out which of these firms has picked you to do this on-campus interview. And you show up to a spot like the Metro Convention Center in Toronto. It's different spots in different cities, but in Toronto I think they usually do it at that convention center on, on Front Street. And they'll have booths set up, and you basically go from booth to booth at scheduled times, and you sit for a 15-minute interview. The interviews are almost never substantive in nature. They have made some substantive determination on you in deciding whether or not to give you the initial interview. They are very behavior and personality driven for right or for wrong, whether or not you agree with the interview style, that's, that's how they do it.

31They're, they're sort of assessing personality traits. They don't like to use the word fit anymore, Pulat, but I think that's essentially what, what they're usually assessing in those booths. And then you find out after that there's a call day where you get calls at a particular time of the day, and the firms that want to invite you back for the next step will let you know. And if you get, if you get called by firms and they say come back, there's another 3-day insane process called infirms, where you book longer interview sessions with a few of these firms. You go back and, and you meet more lawyers there. It's longer. They may invite you to breakfast, to lunch, to dinner, to drinks.

32That happens a lot through Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday morning. And then the Wednesday afternoon at 5:00 PM, the firms call and make their offers to candidates. That's the general process. There's strategy in terms of playing that process, but for me and McCarthy's, and this advice I hope would be helpful to anybody that sort of has their mind set on a particular firm. I mean, on one level, you look at all these big firms, Pulat, and they look kind of the same, but I'm being very frank with you when I say you spend a few years in the profession, you actually realize they are different in real respects. They really are. Some of it is difficult to articulate in terms of a difference in vibe and culture.

33Some of it is more easy to articulate in terms of a difference in the kind of work you do. What I find the biggest disservice to students is going through the system is they often sort of, they're in 1L, of course they're new to the profession, so they normalize the idea of, I have no idea what I want, there's no way I can know what I want. And I think generally this isn't something that's sort of refuted by career offices. They sort of go through it as, I'm going to apply to a bunch of firms, whoever likes me likes me, you know, all the best will turn out. That, that wasn't my particular philosophy.

34I wanted to learn more about the firms, and I wanted to say, let me try to make the most educated decision for me. And so I was someone that wanted to be a litigator. I was somebody that through law school developed an interest in tort law, and particularly medical negligence, but also commercial and property litigation. I knew I wanted somewhere that was gonna reward an entrepreneurial spirit, let me get on my feet, let me be more in contact with clients and running smaller files. Those were at least some basic criteria I had in mind. Applying that, I was able to find out there were a handful of firms that seemed to consistently excel in offering that experience to associates.

35So I went in with a very focused mentality into the process, and McCarthy's and Lenczner Slaght, frankly, were the two firms that were top of mind for those goals for that time in my life. So I sort of approached interviews with that in mind and with a certain vigor. Like when it came to McCarthy's, you know, you'll get generic advice for students saying make a connection at the firms you're applying to. And a lot of students take that to mean, well, okay, I will email one person that went to my law school that's at each of these firms. I will have a 15-minute phone call with them and I'll drop their name in a cover letter.

36I'm not sure how useful that is. I think, my opinion, the better strategy, try to focus on the firms that you really do think you're interested in and that match up with your career goals, at least at that point in time, and make a meaningful connection there. So for myself with McCarthy's, one of my mentors at the law school's legal clinic had just been hired there. Another one was in 3L and had already, you know, summered there. I connected with these people over lunch. I asked them real substantive questions. I was not shy about saying, I want to work at the firm. Whatever you can do to help me or to facilitate that, I'd be grateful.

37And they did. It wasn't just dropping a name in a cover letter. It was, this person is my mentor at law school and I worked with them at the legal clinic. They've told me X, Y, and Z about the firm. This is why I want to be a McCarthy's litigator. That's sort of the way I approached it. So it wasn't just, this is a throwaway. I'm actually interested in your law firm, like, take notice. And I know when I spoke to Gail Long, who was the person that handled the recruitment at the time, she said that didn't go unnoticed. That was appreciated. It was noticed. So that was my approach with McCarthy's, and it ended up working.

38And that's where I started my career.

40Yeah,

43I, what I would say is this, it is, it is tough to find a lot of firms that have that, and, and I really mean this when I say that level of commitment to advocacy and to training litigators. It's a culture there that goes decades back. And, and as you said, you got living legends who started Lenczner Slaght, Roy Smith Griffin, so many lawyers in that firm are McCarthy's alumni. Polly Faith, Megan Kienberg from Van Curlingen Kienberg. I mean, there's so many McCarthy's alumni spread all over. And yeah, there's 3 McCarthy's alumni at my firm. That was the allure going to law school, going back to knowing what you want. It's a firm where they get their people into court.

44They go to trial, they go to appeals. You're doing 4 or 5 discoveries your first year as an associate there. Now, your next question may be why, how is that developed? I think a lot of it is tied, and this sort of plays into Lerners and Lenczner's success as litigation firms as well. It ties into having the Canadian Medical Protective Association as a client. They are the frontline defense for physicians when they get into regulatory, civil, and even sometimes criminal trouble. And because of that, there's such a volume of those kinds of files, and they're the kinds of files where They're often going to discovery and mediation if they're going to settle, and a lot of them will go to trial.

45In my first year of employment at McCarthy's, I got to do a trial with my mentor there, Sarit Batner. Right. So you'll see a lot of those cases.

47I think she's one of the best to ever do it, and she's only 20 years in. I still think that. But anyway, so you'll see a lot of cases go to trial because of that client and the tribunal stuff at the College of Physicians. It gets lawyers trained. The partners sharpen their skills and they use them as opportunities to train juniors. And when you get that reputation because of that work, it makes commercial clients want to come to you, and then you get more commercial cases. And the more cases you get, the higher chance some of them are going to go to application or go to trial or go to arbitration.

49So the central theme of that story is, again, to use the Pulat expression, knowing what you want. So as I said, you couldn't ask for a better mentor than Sarit Batner, and I had some great years at McCarthy's. But as you know, when you're in one of those firms, you're going to be working very hard. So you have to make a decision. And I have seen associates regret even thinking about this decision too late in their career. You have to make a decision. If I'm going to be working this hard, what am I working towards? What do I want here? So do I want partnership? Do I want a future with this firm? And as, as incredible as the training was at McCarthy's, one thing that I observed, and I think this is the evolution of the profession, you're talking about a massive firm in the TV tower in downtown.

50It's a lot of infrastructure and resources, but you have to pay for that, and you pay for that with institutional powerhouse clients. And so even McCarthy's, a firm where its legendary litigators were doing criminal trials in the '80s and they were doing scrappy commercial litigation and oppression applications, their clientele has gotten bigger and bigger, and servicing those clients takes a lot of resources. And what it means is the path to partnership in a firm like that is increasingly the big cases, the high-profile IP, pharma litigation, the big box arbitration. There's a lot of reward in that work if you're interested in it. I have friends that are making partner or made partner at McCarthy's.

51They love that work and they excel at it. It wasn't what I wanted. I wanted the scrappier commercial litigation for hard-nosed business people, joint venture and partnership disputes. I wanted fast-paced discipline hearings. That was sort of where I saw my practice going. So the kind of book I would have to build at McCarthy's and business case to make partner, it wasn't necessarily what I was interested in doing anymore. I said, I think it's time to pivot. I want to be a boutique litigator. I want to have these— I want to have that mid-market, and that's where I want to operate. So that was sort of a large part of what drove me to the decision.

52I'd just come off a massive 2-year case that had gone to arbitration. We had succeeded in it, and it was a great feeling, but it was also a feeling of realization of, you know, it's going to be a number more of these kinds of files. I'm not sure this is where my heart's at. So I started sort of considering boutique opportunities. I'd heard about Pape Barristers since law school. Two of its partners taught me advanced civil procedure when I was there, so the reputation preceded itself. And some lawyers at McCarthy sort of linked me up with some lawyers at Paul Pape's firm. And, you know, I'd met with them and basically what they promised me is what they ended up delivering in spades, which is this is a boutique firm where you can come, you can learn how to build a book, you can get some more client interaction, you'll have smaller files that you'll be running with, you'll be in court all the time, and we can preserve that mix of health law that you've been doing.

53You can still do some of that stuff because of our practice. You can do commercial litigation. But extra bonus Paul Pape and Shantona Chaudhury are also going to teach you the art of appellate advocacy, and you're going to get a bunch of appeals. So that sounded like a very promising offer. I jumped on the opportunity, and I had 3 of the best years of my life there.

55It is. I mean, Paul Paul is another one of those living legends in the appeal bar. And Shantona, now, I mean, she's, she's done you know, in, in a matter of just over a decade, she's done more civil appeals than a lot of litigators do in a 40-year career. They're amazing. We did— I, I did a lot of appeals. We did a lot of consulting to other law firms on appeals factum writing, all kinds of things that sort of sharpen those skills. And gave me a new insight into the life cycle of a file, into things to think about even as a trial lawyer. Think about that next step potentially because it may be important.

56So we did do a lot of appeals, but Paul at the time had two other partners, Tanya Palliaroli, who was McCarthy's alumni, and David Steinberg, who was Osler alumni. David and Tanya had a primarily first instance practice, and that was very important to me. So They fed me medical negligence, regulatory health law, commercial litigation work from the first instance. Paul and Shantona fed me a lot of appeals, administrative work, high-stakes sort of counsel work, if you will, advising on sensitive situations, that sort of thing. That was a lot of their practice. Although ironically, the biggest trial I did at Pape Barristers was with Paul and Shantona, and it was a real estate commercial litigation trial, but they did do a lot of appeal work.

58No, you're bang on. So I did some plaintiff side med mal work with Tanya. But in that health law sphere, what I also did, which I continue to do today, is defending health professionals at their colleges, like regulated health professions work. I love that work at McCarthy's. They call them discipline hearings, but they're the same as a trial. I got 3 of those hearings in my time at McCarthy's. Loved it. Tanya and I continued to do it at Pape, and I continue to do it today.

60Doctors, but healthcare practitioners in general. In general, it's a sensitive area, and regulation, Pulat, has only increased. I think it was 2014 or '15 where they added a whole bunch of these colleges. I think there's 37 regulated health professions colleges now.

622018, it is. Yeah, so it's, it's, it's interesting. I never thought that it would happen that early. Truly I, as I said, I, I really— I was having the time of my life at Pape Barristers because those 4 partners were getting me into court or examinations or mediations all the time. They really taught me how to be on my feet, and I was, I was building my book. I was starting to get referrals. I had some clients. I, I didn't expect it to happen in, in June of 2018, but by 2018 there had been a lot of changes at, at Pape Barristers. Some of the partners were spinning off to sort of do their own thing.

63And Paul and Shantona were going to reconstitute the firm as Pape Chaudhry. And right around that time, my good friend from law school, Owen Goddard, he had been practicing in criminal defense and regulatory law with Breeze Davies, who's now Madam Justice Davies on the Superior Court on the Toronto list. We had been talking about one day doing a firm together and he was ready. There were a lot of changes going on at Pape, and so I said, "Maybe this is the time to take the gamble and hang a shingle." It was something we thought about and we discussed through 2018, and we said, "You know what? Let's do it. Let's take a risk and do it."

64We were pretty early in our careers to do it. I know you did the same and so did Mark Ross, but we said, "Why not?" yeah, that's what happened. So right before, you know, Pape Barristers moved locations and they did Pape Choudhury, David Steinberg went his separate way, Tanya went her separate way, and then I said, okay, I'm going to try my thing as well.

66No, so Janani was was married to Owen in, I think, 2013. I think it was my first year as an associate at McCarthy. She'd gone to law school with us. She and Owen had been dating pre-law school. She was working at another firm doing criminal defense, lots of criminal appeals. I was just Owen and myself at first and then in 2019 Janani and he basically approached us and and, and, and discussions started about her coming in as a partner.

68Yeah, civil litigator.

70Yeah, I mean, it's— that's a good question. It's tricky because they are very different. Practice areas. And, and the concept with Owen and myself was not one built necessarily off of practice synergies. I think we could both do the regulatory defense work, so there was that. The idea or the dream was let's build the next Stockwoods, because I, I think there are some firms like Stockwoods, maybe Polyfaith Browdy, that are able to exist in all three spheres of litigation, as in civil, regulatory, criminal. Okay. And the idea of that was cool. And where we thought the synergies might kick in down the road is you get files that arise from parallel proceedings or concurrent proceedings.

71And there's a lot of high-stakes litigation sometimes where there's a civil and regulatory component or regulatory and criminal component. So that was the original idea. But it is— it can be challenging because the clients are different. The resources you need for a growing civil practice are different from that of a growing criminal practice. And frankly, I think that's— that may be largely why I'm no longer in that situation. And I ended up partnering with Mark is because of the difference in the needs of the two types of practice.

73No, no, definitely not. And I mean, no matter what kind of partnership you're going into, I think it's very important that you have trust with your partner and that you have an aligned vision, right? And that's frankly, you know, the point at which I went and joined Mark. I think my vision of of what the firm I wanted to be in was different from my partners. I think two of the best, finest criminal defense lawyers of our generation, but different concept. They were going for a different concept I was going for. But yeah, Mark and I met in 2016, early opposing counsel, Pulat, on a file. We were arguing a motion at master's court and I'd read on, I'd read up on Mark And I went to him after the motion.

74I said, listen, I've read into your story. I love what you did starting your own firm so early. And this was genuine. I said, I'm actually amazed that you seem to have turned yourself into a very skilled litigator because I wouldn't have been able to do that. I would have never— I don't think I would have ever been good at this job without the mentorship and training I received. Mark is a self-taught, sort of hard-bones trial warrior. And he's, he's just so good in court. And, and so I said, I'd like to get a coffee sometime and, and talk to you about it. And he said, well, why don't we go have lunch right now?

75So we went downstairs, 393, right at that place where you can get a bite and a coffee. We, we sat down together for, I think it ended up being 2, 2 and a half hours. We just got along famously well. We stayed in touch after that. We became good friends, and, and he became one of my mentors. You know, a lot of people back then in 2016 would laugh at me when I said, I want to build a book of business, I want a clientele. Not Mark. He encouraged it effusively. He gave me tips, he gave me advice, he referred clients to me. So I started building a book on that basis. And so we were very good friends by the time Goddard Nasseri started.

76And it was actually at the beginning of 2020 before COVID broke out, that Mark started flirting with all of us, if you will. He knew Owen and Janani as well, and he said, you know, you guys want to be the next Stockwoods, but I sort of sense you could use some more infrastructure. I've got this great firm, great associates. Why don't you sort of come into my hub? And that's where the flirting started, and Mark sort of continued expressing interest in that idea throughout 2020. And it was by the end of that year that I was very sold on that idea, and I felt like with a growing civil and regulatory practice, I needed the leverage, I needed the associate support, I needed more clerks.

77So I was very much in favor of that idea and I wanted to do it. And that's sort of how I ended up joining Ross Barristers.

79So I would say about just over a quarter of my practice is what I would call regulatory litigation, and that's defending professionals at their tribunals or colleges. A lot of it is, as we said before, health professionals. So I have acted for physicians that for whatever reason are not covered by the CMPA and McCarthys or Lenczners send them—naturopaths, dentists, chiropodists, pharmacists. Dental hygienists, lawyers at the Law Society, and also, you know, some real estate and mortgage professionals as well. So that's the regulatory component, and that's defending them. And it could be anything from sexual abuse of a patient to allegations of billing fraud, suitability to practice, you name it. The other component of my practice, the civil litigation, A lot of it is your sort of bread and butter commercial litigation, shareholder disputes, contract disputes, some construction here and there, some estates here and there, lots of property litigation.

80So it could be disputes arising from contracts to buy or sell commercial or residential property. Even, believe it or not, we've still got some easements and adverse possession cases. In there, in the pipeline.

82Exactly. And then the other component of the civil litigation umbrella, and this is why I said civil when you asked me commercial, because I actually really love this work. I'm trying to build a niche in this sort of area of litigation that arises from parallel or concurrent proceedings. So, for example, something happened and there are simultaneous criminal, regulatory, and civil proceedings, or even just two of the three. So, for example, we have a number of cases right now where we're defending battery allegations and there's been a criminal trial and maybe my client's been acquitted, but they've come after the client civilly, or allegations were made against the client criminally. The charges were withdrawn or stayed, and we're suing the other side for malicious prosecution.

83So that's another component of my practice, and it's one that I very much like because it's something not a lot of lawyers do. It's a particular niche I publish in the area, and I just find it very fascinating, the evidentiary and procedural issues that arise when you have multiple proceedings that come from the same facts.

85No. If I have criminal work coming, I've got a lovely network of criminal defence lawyers, friends from law school. I was in criminal chambers before. So I would refer to them. I would never be comfortable today being first chair on a criminal proceeding. I think that would be overstepping. I had the privilege and pleasure of doing a 2-month criminal trial with Owen Goddard when we had Goddard Nasseri. That was an experience of a lifetime. Learned a lot doing that. And I think for a lot of civil litigators out there, if you have a chance to second chair a major criminal trial, do it. You won't regret it. Ashley Lenzner did a murder trial. My partner Eric Brusso did a massive fraud trial with Jeff Marshman.

86These are life-changing, career-changing experiences. I would, I would encourage any civil litigator, if you can sniff that opportunity out, do it. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't take a criminal case on as first, first chair,

88Very good questions. Do you mind if I answer them backwards?

90Okay, so how do I find clients? And this is important because this question comes up in various guises all the time. How do you build a book? How, how come? How did— how is it that suddenly, you know, you're able to feed associates and clerks? And how did that happen? When you— what, especially when you go to one of these blue-chip firms, you know, they'll do sessions on business development and they'll talk about building your brand and publishing and teaching and lecturing and all that. If you're passionate about some of those things, doing them is great, as long as you don't forget the most important thing: build your skills and do your But ultimately, the number one, the number one driver of business development, the number one driver is your personal relationships.

91Okay. So how do I get clients? It's because lawyers that I have befriended that trust me and know me feel comfortable sending people my way. People like yourself. I meet people in this profession through You know, I was a big fan of yours and, and, and you being a leader in the bar and embracing technology. I reached out to you, we started a correspondence, then I, I invited you to come and speak on a panel. You were brilliant on it. That's one example of a story of where you develop a relationship and then, you know, it grows over time. Those relationships, the organic ones, you know, the ones where you just connect with somebody and you vibe whether it's you through following you on social media, Mark through watching him in a courtroom, or my friends from law school that I stay in touch with.

92It could be any of those things. You know, when, when you have a— when you sense that you connect well with somebody in this profession, doesn't matter, at a mixer, opposing counsel, in law school, you meet them, you know, wherever it could be, seize on it. Invest a little bit into the relationship. It is, it is not that hard to go and have a coffee with somebody. If you meet someone, you have a conversation with them and you like them, take the extra step. What's your number? Let's get a coffee. Okay, build the relationship. The more of those relationships you have, and, and, and there's nothing sleazy or mercenary about it, it's real relationships.

93The people that I interact with, that I do BD with because I'm having coffee or having drinks with them, or we're going for dinner. These are people that I like, I want to get to know them better. I want to know their story, or they're already good friends of mine, right? Those relationships, that's 90% of the work I get. It really is. The rest of it, the other angle that I'm trying to grow, and this is something that Megan Keenberg taught me, it's a very valuable lesson. You, you can get a lot of work by, by investing in building a relationship with your clients. And not every client you're going to have that connection with, or it's going to be suitable, but certainly some of them.

94And some of my clients have become friends. And clients can also beget more clients. If you act for someone who's in the business community and they've done well, guess what the chances are? They know a lot of other business people. They'll have dinner sometimes. They'll go to conventions. One of them will say, I got this problem. I have a departing employee who's just stolen a bunch of confidential info. What do I do here? Who do I call? Oh, I know a litigator you can call. He helped me when I was, you know, feeling the pain. So that's how I get— that's how I get the referrals, at least, that end up turning into clients.

95Now, you know, does the fact that I put some time into publishing articles that I was passionate about early years, doing some of those things, does it help your profile? Does it create referral validation? Yes, when somebody goes and sees my bio, look, somebody's going and looking at Neil Wilson's bio and mine, and he's published on a particular real estate topic and I haven't, that might be the difference. But that's the icing on the cake. The bread and butter, the core of business development is just building and nurturing your personal relationships. It really is that simple in my view. Okay? And that's what Mark Ross taught me years ago. Why do the clients trust me?

96So that's really— and that's why I wanted to answer backwards, because what I've just answered is, well, why are the clients coming to the door, calling, or emailing? But then why do they decide to hire me? Why do they go with me? Part of it is, you know, getting the referral from somebody they trust who may be another lawyer or a client of mine. Part of it though is the way I treat clients. So, and, and people will have different philosophies on this, but for example, I veer away from charging an initial consultation fee because for me, and the styles are different, but for me, what works for me is I want to instill in a client that, look, I, I care enough that I'm going to spend a little bit of time telling you why there's a value here.

97Okay, so My approach generally when a client reaches out is I say, I want you to put your story down in a narrative. It's going to be confidential, but you need to do a little bit of homework. Give me the A to Z properly chronologically. It's going to make you think about your case better. It's going to make you a better witness down the road. It's going to help any lawyer you end up hiring, whether or not it's me. And it's going to help make our first meeting more productive. Get me a narrative at least so I have an idea of what's going on. I'll look at the narrative. I'll consider the issues that arise.

98I may even do a bit of legal research and reading just to sort of brush up my skills. So I will go into that first meeting with some sense of at least the legal test, the principles at play. And in my initial meeting with any client, I am always very candid. I'm candid about the unpredictability of litigation. I'm candid about what the costs at a bare minimum are going to look like in a proceeding before there's even any discussion of resolution. I'm candid about what I see as the big issues. That the case turns on, you know, subject to getting more evidence and documents. I'm candid about all those things, and I'm candid about the emotional, personal, and financial stress of litigation.

99And I tell them, I say, I'm not saying this to crush your spirits or dissuade you. I'm telling you this to give you the straight goods and so that you know you're getting an advisor that is always going to be very, very candid with you about the process, about what you're getting into. I think Clients appreciate the candour. I think they appreciate the approach. They appreciate me investing a bit of time into sort of getting to know something about their case and breaking it down a bit. And I think they like when someone can look past the noise because clients will often come into those meetings spewing a lot of noise and it's a lot of personal stuff or petty things.

100And I'll be quick to say, I hear you and all that. To you, it's a big issue. It doesn't matter. There's 3 issues that matter in your case, 1, 2, 3, or there's one thing that this case turns on. Put all that aside. Again, I think they appreciate that candor. They appreciate somebody giving them the 10,000-foot— clients want to hear the straight goods ultimately. And I think that's why they end up trusting me and going with me.

102I appreciate that.

104This was an absolute pleasure. As you know, I'm, I'm a big fan of yours. I love what you're doing. You're a pioneer in the bar for, for embracing technology technology in litigation, and I love that. And I have a feeling we're going to work together on a lot of projects in the years to come.

106Thank you.