Kayla Cardinal Lafrance

2A brief bio. Okay. Well, I went to the University of Ottawa, first in the civil law faculty, and then later I did the national program. And I guess we'll talk about that because there was a bit of a break in between when I finished civil law and did the national program to get into common law to get the JD. I recently passed the bar in and got called to the bar in January 2020. And got my first full-fledged lawyer job in March of this year, right before the pandemic. And now I'm working in and around the Prescott-Russell region in Ontario, which is a— I would call it like a border town between Ontario and Quebec.

3Specifically, Hawkesbury is the border town. And I'm a community legal clinic lawyer.

5Yes, I did. Absolutely. Yeah. Is the legal clinic— Very knowledgeable. Yeah.

7It's called Clinique Juridique de Prescott Russell. There's no— it's funny, there's no English version of the name because it's a designated French clinic.

9Not only the Francophone population. So, my bilingual skills come in handy because we do have a lot of English-speaking people as well in the region. But yeah, there's a predominance of French. I would say 70% of the work here is done in French. So, French common law.

11So, I was born in Montreal. But very soon after, I moved to the Gatineau region, specifically in a very small town called Masson-Angers, which is now part of Gatineau. And I grew up in, in the outskirts of Ottawa-Gatineau.

13Yes, I did, yeah.

15Okay, well, we're diving deep into, into how I felt during law school and that kind of thing. I was very young When I first started law, if you're not familiar with civil law, you can get in pretty quickly based on your grades. And I was admitted at the age of 18 in civil law. And the competition was very strong. I didn't feel like I fit in. I came in with, you know, no preparation, nothing, just admitted starting September with a dream and not knowing anything about the process, right? And I got really, really challenged. Really, really challenged. And so the results were the results. It wasn't the best first year. I don't think I have glowing grades from that year, but After speaking with many people, people just said, you know what, just do it.

16Let them kick you out. Don't give up. Just go through the motions and see what happens. And, you know, if you're not cut out for it, they're going to kick you out. So what's, what's the worry? And I was like, okay. But, you know, as us as new law people, we, we come from great grades previously and to now be at the bottom of the pack, it's kind of humbling, to say the least. So I was part of that group, right? And after a while, the competition really got to me and I felt I didn't fit in, anything like that. So when I graduated, I said, you know, I don't think I'm ready for this.

17I graduated when I was 22, and I don't think I'm cut out for this, and I'm just gonna go work. I'm gonna go work. I'm gonna get some work experience and that kind of thing. And, you know, law school is always gonna exist. The bar is always going to exist. So I'm just gonna do what I think is right. So I was taking a chance and, you know, slightly giving up, So what was great about going to work is I got to know my value on the marketplace, like on the— what I was worth, what I could contribute to any organization, which, you know, when you're a very young person and you haven't worked yet, it's hard to know how you place yourself.

18You're just basing yourself off of your, what, your academic grades, as if that really translates into your workplace performance. And with a couple of years, I saw how some people who had great grades in law school decided to change careers, and some people who were kind of maybe more average were doing great. And I was stuck in certain you know, certain organizations. They, they gave me a lot of opportunities, but a part of me wanted more responsibility. And I was already, already acting as if I should have more responsibility and that kind of thing. And I realized, well, maybe I should just go back and finish what I intended to do and get the— do the national program, get the JD, and have that dual training, pass the bar, and try it out as a lawyer.

19The worst that can happen is I'm going back to the job I currently have. That's the worst that can happen. So why not?

21Correct, yes.

23Oh, well, see, I wanted to be special, so I didn't do the normal civil law program. I did a special combined dual degree civil law program. So I did civil law and international development. That takes 4 years.

25No, it's a bachelor's. It's a bachelor's.

27I— it's hard to know. They call it a license. So you are licensed to practice civil law.

29Yeah, sorry, you can't practice law once you get the degree. You still have to go do the Quebec Bar, but,

31you, you get a license from,

33Yes.

35After you finish the program, yeah, that's the way to do it. You do get your license and you, and you you go do the Quebec Bar.

37I did anything and everything. It was really just, I don't know where I'm going now, so I went literally to— well, first I was a tour guide for a little bit, and I had been doing that for 3 years, so I stopped doing that. But after I stopped, I was like, what else could I do? I don't know which organization I want to work with. I don't know who I am yet, you know, like I just— and so I came up with the idea of just going to a placement agency, and for a while, while I was thinking, I was replacing all the sick receptionists in the downtown Ottawa area. So I'd get a call in the morning, yep, this organization needs a replacement today and I'd head over.

38It was literally like day to day. I got little jobs like that and then I worked for more like not-for-profit organizations too. Very administrative type roles.

40I got more permanent jobs. So eventually someone wanted me to be an executive assistant and I got— they liked my work and so they hire you. And I was doing that for a fair bit. And I just noticed that I had a lot to give and the executive assistant role was making me learn a lot of things and making me grow, but I knew that at some point I was going to plateau. And a year in, I was like already seeing the end and I figured if I don't make a decision now, it's just going to be harder harder and harder to get back to going back to school. I had a couple of other odd jobs after that, again through the placement agency, sometimes in government, that kind of thing.

41And finally, I just registered and Got accepted again, all over again, and I was finally excited to, to, to go back as a more mature student. And I— there's something to be said about doing a law degree when you're a bit older. You have a lot more perspective, and the culture that's in law school gets to you less. Because you have a life outside of it. So, you know,

43Correct. It's specifically the national program, which is an additional year that you do to get the JD, because as some— maybe people don't know, but when you do civil law, you still have to do all the federal courses right? So we've done a bunch of common law already. We just need that extra year to do more private provincial stuff. Yeah,

45right?

47The civil law program there, there's generally speaking a different culture there. There's cultural differences with the people who apply, of course and get accepted. I think because common law you have to have a degree before you apply Generally speaking, people are more— I don't like to say that they're more mature, they're just older, you know. So they, they've done a degree before, they know how university works, they know the level of intensity you have to work at to get good grades. Civil law, we were very young. A lot— there was a lot of people like me who were just admitted at 18 and To know that you're going to be a lawyer at 18 is a huge ego boost, and that comes with certain personality consequences and big egos, you know.

48I really appreciated my common law experience, even though most of the common law people I was with were from the civil law program. So, you know,

50It was French, yes. But you could write at Ottawa U, you can write your exam in the language of your choice,

52in

54Yes,

56I'm unfamiliar. I think that's more University of Ottawa specific.

58No, no, I was that discouraged.

60Yes, I think my stunt in the workforce was— sorry, not my stunt, my stint in the workforce was a confidence builder, right? And I did just that extra year made me feel like, oh, I can actually do this. What was I thinking? What was I so afraid of? Right. I can actually do this. And I got decent grades during that year. And then I decided to do the law practice program, the French one that's offered at the University of Ottawa. And the law practice program really gave me a lot of confidence. A lot. Yeah.

62During the law practice program. I had just— it just dawned on me that I hadn't really maximized all the opportunities I had in law school. Especially when I was younger because I was just so lost and trying to keep up, just keeping my head above water. I didn't have time to get involved in any sort of activity or extracurricular anything. Like, it was just that much work for me, for a person in my situation. And I, I didn't particularly have the motivation to go beyond concentrating on my courses. Once I got into the Law Practice Program, I really started to understand the importance of networking. I already understood that it was important, but the importance of getting involved in organizations.

63I've always been a bit of an individualist. I like talking to everybody. I try and talk to as many people as possible, but for me to join a group is just— there's a comedian out there who says, you know, who joins a group? You know and I, I resonated with that for a long time. I, I really refused being part of any groups just really stubborn about that.

65No, and I would agree that came with a bit of age, a bit of experience, and learning to appreciate the, the value in cooperation and the value in collaboration. That came much later in my life, so that value was a new value, and I was really embracing it at that point.

67Yes, that's true.

69I feel like an outsider at home, so I thought that by crossing the— so let's just unpack that maybe. I always felt like I didn't fit in even as a child You know, so a part of me had wished that by going to Ontario and, you know, having a career in Ontario, maybe it was cultural. Maybe I didn't fit into Quebec, but I would fit into Ontario. And then I realized I didn't fit into Ontario either, so I was like, oh no, what do I do? It must be me. And so Fitting in has just been put on the back burner. I just have to get comfortable being myself, no matter the environment of where I am or who I'm with.

70The whole francophone thing, you would think would impact me a lot. But my identity, I feel very strongly about being bilingual and bicultural. I never pick between both because I don't feel like I'm one more than the other. I very much studied in both languages. I have parents who speak both languages. I've worked in both languages. So I— and that's the thing. I consume media and art in both languages as well. So for me to say, oh, I'm Francophone doesn't really make sense because I'm also Anglophone. And culturally also, I have that duality. And so I refuse to pick. I refuse to pick sides. And when I cross the border, it kind of confirms who I am.

71It's just, I'm working in a border town and I'm kind of a border person. I've always lived in these types of regions that had to cross the river.

74Oh, well, my— the language that I hear at work at the moment, very French, very French. I'm definitely the token Anglo-speaking person there. Yeah, English-speaking person. It comes across subtly, but it's just sometimes because I'm new to the region, certain expressions, you know, the French that's spoken in the region, they have like very flowery metaphor expressions. And every once in a while I catch myself not understanding what the expression was And then they see my deer-in-headlights look, and then they say, oh, it means this, this, this. I was like, oh, OK. Because to me, if my father doesn't say it and if my grandfather doesn't say it, I tend not to know it. And they're not from the region I'm currently working in.

75So yeah, that's the only times it really shows. Maybe some people who are a bit snooty, snootier about language might notice the little mishaps here and there that I make, that I make in English and that I also make in French. So it goes no matter which language I speak. Some people say I have an accent in both languages. Some people say, no, you have— you're perfectly bilingual. I can't even hear any hint of anything. So, it's really great.

77Yes. Yes. So,

79Yes, I do.

81So far, I've only had simulated at the law practice program, but it's upcoming Very shortly. So that's the reason why I picked this job. I said, listen, I want to— I want a place that can benefit from my bilingualism. And I want to plead in English. I want to plead in French. I want both. And I need a place that supports both.

83Yeah, more like landlord and tenant boards.

85Yes, we have to, or at the very least a bilingual one, right? Depends how you use the word French there, but yes, we have a lot of clientele that's French-speaking, so we necessarily have to always do the checkboxes. Yes, we must have it in French, and that comes with its our share of delays, but we have to because it's one of our main goals is to increase access to justice for French-speaking people in Ontario.

87Oh, well, I'm not still familiar with all the intricacies of it because of the pandemic. My, my training has been expanded, so it's very slow, but it's— the moratorium on evictions has just been lifted, so I'm sure I'm going to be more knowledgeable about that aspect soon.

89Well, they have to accept that we're doing it in French, but at least at the tribunals that I deal with. And however, on the judge or the member of the tribunal. We tend to always see the same faces because there's not that many. So sometimes we have a— there's a bit of a token person who speaks French who does most of our cases.

91Yeah, absolutely. And it's what interests me about about this, this job. It's that I can actually advocate for linguistic rights on a regular basis, right? I want to promote access to justice in both languages, in both official languages. So if I were to again cross the border to Quebec, I would want to advocate for the English-speaking population to have proper service in English. And I would like to see a similar situation happen in Ontario, and I think Ontario is lagging behind Quebec in this respect.

93I prefer to read them in the language that they were written in.

95Like the judge. What does the judge speak? And I want to read it that way. Just like a movie. Just like a movie.

97Right.

100Yeah, absolutely. It's a key feature for bilingual lawyers to use. It's always to your advantage to, but you have to really master both languages because it's subtleties of the language. It's stuff about commas and, you know, the small stuff. And if you're into that, You need to use it, especially if you're bilingual. So I don't know them by heart. I'm not that much of an expert yet, but I do plan on becoming one. And yeah, that is very much something I want to leverage and get an advantage on. And it's very refreshing to hear that a person other, you know, I would say a little bit outside of the Francophone legal community realizes that there's some decisions you haven't really, you know, read properly or, you know, properly, you know.

103It's hard to say. I see a lot of appointed judges who are more Anglophone and who say they are bilingual, right? There's something to be said about not being French first and hearing a French the case. There's stuff that gets— again, we're talking about translation— it's lost in translation, lost in the interpretation. But then you come across a wall where it's like, okay, well, what are we going to say? You have to be absolutely perfectly bilingual to be appointed to a position like a judge? And it's like, well, you know, it's— again, it depends. But I hope we're striving in that direction, that Ontario lawyers and Canadian lawyers at large are striving towards increased bilingualism so that we don't have to have these discussions, you know, these uncomfortable discussions.

104So maybe we're not there yet as a society, but I'm a huge crusader for bilingualism. Francophones who don't speak English need to learn English. English speakers who don't know French need to learn French. And if you can't do it in your generation, make sure that your kids do it. Because the future is for people who speak both languages or, you know, at the very least multiple languages. But, you know, start with the first, the two official languages in Canada. That'd be a good start if you're unilingual. Yeah.

106Well, thank you for having me. It's been really nice chatting, as, as always.