Maureen Whelton

2You're welcome, and it's lovely to be here. I do have a correction, though. The firm is now Stevenson Whelton LLP. McDonald's

4no longer a part of our firm.

6Yes, I did.

8Yes, St. FX is in Antigonish, Nova Scotia. It's a small—

10Yes.

12No, I grew up in Ottawa but my parents were both from the Maritimes. They were both from New Brunswick. And so when it came time to choose an undergraduate university, I was drawn to the Maritimes, and Saint FX is essentially the school that they would agree to, so that's where I landed.

14I was. I wanted to, I wanted to go away. I wanted to, I, I wanted to I live in residence, I wanted a small campus, I wanted a school where there would be good academic opportunities, but that it would also be collegial and I would get to know people, it would be small, it would— I was looking for a particular atmosphere and St. FX filled that atmosphere.

16Yes.

18I majored in political science and minored in psychology.

20No, I think a wide— I think law draws a wide variety of people, people with very different abilities and different interests. I have given some thought to whether there's anything in childhood that would predict someone becoming a litigator. Because I do think going into law is— you could decide to go into law with so many different interests, and you'd be drawn to intellectual property law or corporate law or human rights law. There's so many different types of law that you could be drawn to for different reasons. But litigators I think it's a little bit different. I, I, I do wonder whether litigators— you're not likely to be drawn to litigation if you don't enjoy speaking in public.

22Interesting question. Interesting question. Litigation, I think litigation is divided into parts. One part of litigation is what you would learn in law school. One part of litigation is being able to take a fact scenario, understand what the issue are, research the issues, and develop an understanding of what the case is about and how the law applies to the case. And of course, being able to research and understand from the cases or the statutes or whatever materials you're researching how they apply to the facts and developing the issues. All of that is a skill, and being good at that is important to being a good litigator. The second part of litigation is the actual litigating skills.

23It— and I worry that those skills are undervalued, where we aren't— where litigators are not able to practice them as much as they used to. Those skills being peer advocacy, being able to be persuasive to an adjudicator in whatever form that adjudicator is in, being able to be persuasive to to bring them to how you see the events, how you see the facts, how you see the law applying to those facts is a skill. Cross-examining is a skill. Even examinations for discovery is a skill. And of course, trial skills. I know in a trial, both examination in chief or cross-examination I argue those are almost different skills than examining out of court. Trial skills or hearing skills, if you're more used to arbitrations or you're more used to tribunals, but hearing skills are skills in and of themselves.

24But all of these Being good at those skills is a big part of being a good litigator. And I have, watching people through the years, there's no question that some people— there are excellent litigators who are particularly good at some of those things, who are it. There are certainly litigators that are particularly good cross-examiners or litigators that are particularly good at arguing motions, and of course there are litigators who are particularly good at trials, but those are— those skills are a big part of being a good litigator, and of course negotiations and Being able to resolve the case in a way that your client is happy with is also a part of being a good litigator.

25And even dealing with opposing counsel in the day-to-day, I've learned it is In my view, it is part of being a good litigator to be able to move the file in a way where you're working with opposing counsel. You may see things very differently and you're arguing a very different perspective of the case, but there is an element of working with people that is important. And the last thing I'd say, I know I'm going on, but dealing with clients is critical, or whether your clients are institutional and you're dealing with a rep of the institution in some way, so it isn't their money, so to speak, that is on the line, but it is their career, the case will still be important to the person that you're dealing with, or whether you're dealing with individual clients where the case is very personal to them.

26Dealing with clients matters to the quality of the litigator. And the last— this time it is the last thing I'll say— is that the best litigators that I've ever seen, there's something else. It isn't just the sum of the parts. It isn't just, well, they're good at these 8 things and that makes them a good litigator. There is there is something else where they take all of this that I've just described, develop it in their own style, and what results is an extraordinary litigator. And watching those people is, to me, has always been a big pleasure.

29And so I'd say two things. One is that was an omission on my part. I, of course, I was thinking of litigators in a courtroom when I was answering your question, but yes, the ability to write and to write well and write persuasively is also a key part of being a good litigator. So big omission on my part. It is a key part of being a good litigator. I, I think it is no matter the forum that you're going to writing is going to be a big part of it. And I'd even say, and I've said to more junior lawyers at my firm, even the ability to, to the ability to write can even impact your relationship with opposing counsel.

30It I, I, being able to put tone and tenor into your communications that is appropriate to what you're saying matters and being able to write well matters. So I certainly— I didn't intend to suggest that writing wasn't key and important to litigators. That said, you're right that the pandemic has brought the technology issue which advocates in Ontario and frankly across the country, but I've been personally involved in some of the attempts by advocates in Ontario to move technology to the forefront of the Attorney General's mind. And the pandemic has made that happen at lightning speed. I think that that is somewhat separate from the modern trend to have matters decided in writing. I think that the push for that trend had started before the pandemic, particularly on the part of the Court of Appeal.

31The pandemic has just had it move forward at more— at a speed with which we are not used to. Do I think that on a go-forward basis that that means that an advocate's ability to persuade the adjudicator in an oral hearing of their case. I don't. I think that in We're going to see some struggles in the course of the next year to 2 years about what gets heard orally, what gets heard in person, what gets heard over Zoom, and what gets heard in writing. And I think that many organizations I'm— my involvement right now is with the Advocates' Society, and I know the Advocates' Society is working on it, and other organizations are working on it, are working on positions with respect to what should happen on a go-forward basis.

32But that's going to be a struggle. That's going to be a struggle for advocates over the course of the next year to 2 years. It I think we all agree and when I say we all, I'm including the courts, judges, the government. We all agree on, on the obvious ones. We all enjoy that 9:30 commercial court appointments are, are now over Zoom. We all— the other case conferences, that the things where you would take an hour to get to court in order to argue a or to present on a 5-minute consent motion, only to have an hour and a half getting back so that it's 3 hours for something that's 5 minutes.

33And it still to me feels remarkable to be able to sit in my office and actually deal with that in 5 minutes instead of in 2 and a half hours. We all agree on those. I think we even all agree on things like pre-trials or other types of case conferences or on simple motions. I think we all— but there are many others where I think landing on landing in a place where we ought to land in terms of what has to be in person, what can be over Zoom, what can be in writing, where do oral submissions fall into things. I think we're We're going to be struggling with that for a little bit of time to come.

35Yes.

37That's right.

39When I came to Toronto, I certainly had no intention of staying. My intention was to go back to Ottawa and practice law in Ottawa. I did not intend to stay, but then, you know, as they say, life happens. I liked Toronto. The longer I've lived here, the more I like it. My only complaint about Toronto is that it takes so long to get out of it. And the longer I've lived here, the longer it takes to get out of it. But it's a great city, and I guess the single biggest reason that I stayed in Toronto is because I fell in love with a Torontonian who's a true blue Torontonian, and she could not imagine living anywhere else on the planet.

41No, I articled at a large firm. I articled at a large firm, and I— and certainly a large firm was, was not for me. So I wanted to go to a litigation boutique firm, and I landed at Teplitsky Colson.

43No, I, I, at Teplitsky Colson, I worked for Bob Colson and for Colin Stevenson. And Colin, when Colin decided to start his own firm, he I went with him. He asked me to go with him and I went with him. And so the firm was originally Stevenson's and eventually became Stevenson, Whelton, McDonald, and Swan. But then McDonald and Swan broke off and we became Stevenson Whelton.

45Yeah.

47I did. I became a partner after I'm not sure what, after 4 or 5 years. And after about another 5 years, Colin said to me, why don't you take over management? Colin was not then and is not now terribly interested in management, so it fairly quickly fell onto my shoulders.

49We have 11, 11 lawyers and law students,

51Well, that's an interesting question. I, I, what I'm— it's the, the, I mean, the easiest way of describing it is that I'm responsible for the, the management of the firm. I, I What that means on a day-to-day basis, I would imagine, is different firm to firm. But fairly early on, when I started managing the firm, I had drinks with Linda Rothstein, who at the time was managing Paliare Roland, and Linda Rothstein said to me, The best advice I can give you is overpay for a very good office manager. And the advice I think is excellent advice. It I, so I, I, what I am largely responsible for is overseeing the operations as opposed to engaging in each of the operations.

52But I oversee the financial operations, the day-to-day of the law firm. And of course, I'm sure this is absolutely no different for you, that the larger strategic decisions— what type of firm do you want to be? What type of firm do you want to become? How— where do you want to be in 5 years' time? Where do you want to be in 10 years' time? And what are the steps that you have to take to get there?

54Yes, which is a— big, which falls within the where do you want to be. But yes, it— oversee hiring of staff. And then of course, there's the articling program. And any other hiring decisions that have to be made.

56So there's no, there's no cutter profile of a good litigator. As we've just talked about, good litigators are— it will be a variety of personality types and a variety of characteristics. The first thing that I personally really look for is, do you want to litigate? Is this— litigation is hard. Litigation is hard. It's stressful, and every single piece of it is hard, and becoming good at it is very hard. It takes an awful lot of time and an awful lot of effort, and, you know, it's not American television. You You don't land in a courtroom and suddenly you're able to make these comments. It's hard work and it's stressful. And so, in my view, from what I've seen, I think that wanting to litigate is key.

57And wanting it badly enough that you're prepared to commit to the work that's involved at mastering it is key. Now, I will say that I do think people can want to be a litigator and change their minds after a couple of years, and that's That is fair enough. I completely get that. But when I'm hiring, I'm looking for someone who— that this is what they want to do. And my firm is committed to giving its junior lawyers genuine opportunities to become good at this because, of course, you don't become good at this without doing it. You can't learn to cross-examine by watching tapes of cross-examinations. You can learn something about it, but you're not going to become good at it.

58You're not going to personally master it unless you do it. And so we're committed to giving our junior lawyers the opportunities to become good at this craft. And I want to hear from people, this is what I want to do, and I want the opportunities to develop this expertise. So that's the first thing I look for. And I know that was a long answer, and I apologize. I— the second—

60That's true. I'm doing exactly what you do want the witness to do in Discoveries. The second thing I look for is that I— I hope that our firm is a pleasant place to work. I have said at various firm meetings, it is important to me that people want to come to work here, that it's not a question as they're walking in the front door of dreading the day, that as they're walking in the front door that they're going somewhere that they want to be. And so I'm— I'm looking for people who enjoy law and enjoy what it is that we do. And then, of course, I'm looking for everything that you'd expect that I would be looking for.

61I'm looking for people who were involved and engaged in law school and are involved in their communities, whoever those communities may be. Everything that, that you would expect.

63Thank you.

65No, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for the opportunity, and it's good to hear from senior members of the bar. I agree with that, but I have to say, I've had opportunities to hear from more junior members of the bar, and that's also important, and it's also exciting. There's a lot that the changes that are happening in the legal profession are good and are important and are overdue, and it's exciting to see it. It's exciting. I'll be— it's exciting to see where we'll be in 5 years' time and in 10 years' time on the big issues of diversity and inclusion and access to justice. And as I said, technology which I think greatly impacts access to justice.

66And it's an exciting time. And, and it, it— more senior members of the bar have a lot to say, but I think junior members of the bar have, have also have a lot to say. And it's, and it's important and it's good. So thank you for this.

68Thank you.