Ren Bucholz

2I'm great, thanks. Hi, Pulat. Great to see you.

4Sure, happy to. So my name is Ren. I'm a partner at the law firm Paliare Roland, where I practice civil litigation. And civil litigation is, of course, a very broad term. Which is really what brought me to it. I like the variety of things that we get to do, and that can be anything from, you know, corporate commercial litigation to intellectual property, defamation, class actions, big files, small files. There's just a whole lot of stuff that we get to do as civil litigators, and that's how I spend my days.

6That is correct. Yeah, no, I was born in, well, in Chicago Heights, which is sort of like the 905 of Chicago.

8You know, I'm not sure where, if he if he has any connection to Chicago Heights but I mean, he is from Chicago as far as I know.

10And we, yeah, but I bounced around a bunch in the States before coming to Canada in 2005.

12Oh gosh, that's a— you're taking me back there, Pulat. The way that I got involved in journalism was because— so I was always interested in in new technologies and the intersection of new technologies and the law. In high school, I started a high school radio station. In university, I managed the local community radio station. And that was at a time in the United States where there was a great deal of consolidation in the media. So there were basically the Telecommunications Act of 1996 had changed how concentrated ownership could be. And so that had kicked off a whole bunch of changes in the ownership of newspapers, the ownership of radio stations. And that, of course, was happening at the same time that the internet was becoming front and center in many people's lives.

13And I found that all super fascinating from a cultural perspective, from a music perspective, from a from an intellectual structural perspective. And so I was lucky enough to be in a journalism program that had multiple streams, broadcast journalism, photojournalism, and also media studies, which is what I was in. And that was a degree that revolved around studying media institutions, how they develop, how they interact with one another and how they're regulated.

15That was sort of the classic situation where a job and a girl brought me here. My, my wife is Canadian and she was doing her her doctorate in California when we met. And when she finished that degree, she got a teaching post here in Canada. And I was working for an NGO. I worked for about 5, 6 years before law school for an organization called the Electronic Frontier Foundation that does technology and civil liberties work. And so my job at that time took me to Europe quite a lot. And also, I— we had an interest in promoting a copyright reform process that was going on in Canada at the time. So when I moved here in 2005, I continued to lobby on copyright policy issues here.

16And then I spent probably a week a month in Europe dealing with— in some cases, most of the time I was in Geneva doing treaty negotiation stuff around intellectual property issues. And I also worked on broadcast standards, so broadcast standards as they related to digital broadcasting in a variety of locations in Europe. So anyway, I could do that easier. It was easier to fly to Europe from Toronto than it was from San Francisco. And plus my wife was here, so that was exciting.

18Yeah, it's one of those things where when people would find out that I was in these two programs, they would say, wow, that doesn't seem like a good idea. And I was like, you know, it probably isn't because it's a lot of work, both the law school and the master's program. By the time I got to law school, I was really kind of at the tail end of my thesis writing and and was, you know, was working on my degree, which was basically looking at competition law and standards organizations and the interaction of those things. But, you know, when I got to Canada, I was, I had been thinking about, you know, do I want to do academia?

19Do I want to go into private practice and become a lawyer? And this was a way for me to sort of figure that out in a hands-on kind of way. And it was great because I was able to do the master's and have a sense of what that would be like. And I was also watching my partner start her career as an academic. And I realized that being an academic is much harder than being a litigator. And that as fantastic as it is to be an academic, I was looking for something that was a little bit different. And litigation really jumped out at me as a place where I could continue to wrestle with difficult, intellectually meaty questions.

20While also dipping into lots of different subject areas. And that was sort of the basis under which I sort of headed in the direction of litigation.

22That's right. My first summer, I went back to California and I did a Google Policy Fellowship. So basically did a few months in San Francisco studying some of these competition law issues that I was— that I've been working on in my thesis. And yeah, in my second year summer, I went to Lenczner Slaght and had a great summer. And we had just had our first child at that point. So I started, you know, at Lenczner's with— I think we had a a 4-month-old at the time. And so that was also a whole lot, but a really great experience.

24he's almost 12.

26That's right, yeah.

28Well, I think it's a good question because I think that there were sort of two components to this. One is trying to figure out, as a, you know, I was in my mid-20s at that point, trying to figure out what was exciting to me and by way of a profession. You know, I was sitting here thinking, okay, I'm out of university, I've done some graduate work, I've worked for a few years now, in many cases during school, but I had, you know, started to develop a sense of what, you know, what got me excited about going to work, you know, what got me excited about how I spend my days. And the things that really, I think, crystallized for me in that time were that, you know, I like variety.

29I like being able to learn about different areas of the world, figuring out how it works. You know, how does power work? How do people navigate those power structures? You know, these are things that just were questions that kept on arising and had been arising, I realized, in my work in school up until that point. I also recognized that I, you know, I like working on teams of people who are smarter than me. You know, there's no way— there's no better way to tackle those kinds of problems or investigate those issues than with a group of folks that you you know, that you respect and whose you know, whose approach to these topics is, you know, is rigorous and interesting and, you know, ethical and all the rest of it.

30And and, and I think I also, you know, the thing that, that that definitely clicked for me in this period when I was kind of, I was doing graduate school, I was doing this treaty stuff in Europe, and then I was in law school. One thing that was really apparent from my work in Europe was that I needed something that had more immediacy when it comes to the effects of my actions. So when I was in Geneva working on treaty stuff, even if we had a phenomenal success in crafting language that was going to go into a recommendation, we were realistically looking at a situation where that language might make it into a draft treaty, that draft treaty might make it to passage through the specialized agency of the UN where I was working, and then at some point in the future, various countries would ratify the treaty and then implement it through local law.

31That process takes 5, 10, 15 years, you know, for most contentious issues. And it's important work, and it's important that we work in that sphere. But for me, you know, I was looking at that thinking, you know, I would like to be able to see the impact of my efforts more quickly. And so that was, you know, that was kind of the last of the three components that made me really latch on to litigation as a, you know, as a way forward. Because I get to, again, I get to work on all kinds of different matters. I get to dip into different parts of society and the economy and areas of business, areas of regulation that are very disparate.

32And I get to do that with teams of people, which are also changing, but teams of people who I really enjoy working with, who come at this with a level of intellectual curiosity that's really terrific and invigorating. And I quite like it.

34Yeah, I guess, and maybe, I guess I didn't really think about it as the judges themselves. I wasn't sort of, I wasn't looking at this thinking, I'm looking forward to convincing people that I'm right. I was looking at it more like, you know, when you have a problem or your client in this case, you know, in the case of a litigator has a problem, you know, is there a route to solving that problem? And is it one that you can kind of wrap your arms around and, you know, and make a difference for those, the people that you work with? In terms of your clients. And so, yeah, I mean, I guess I would say that I would make that slight distinction because in many cases the work that we do doesn't actually go before a judge.

35There's the specter of an adjudicated outcome at the end of a very long road. But as you know, most, the vast majority of claims that are filed don't ever get to trial. And increasingly, what we do is We're helping people, organizations, institutions navigate the pre-conflict stage so that they can avoid the expense and uncertainty of an adjudicated outcome.

37Well, I think, I mean, my practice is, I think, not too uncommon, which is that whenever we have an engagement with a client, it's pursuant to the terms of a written engagement letter. So there's a, you know, it's clear from the outset that we are acting in a solicitor-client relationship, and that allows us to give, you know, candid advice that is meant to allow our clients to navigate these difficult situations. And so, you know, it's possible, obviously, for lawyers to get too deep into the fray and therefore become witnesses. But we're constantly, I think, aware of the need to maintain, you know, critical distance from the facts that are developing in some cases. And also, you know, advising your clients about that, you know, letting them know that, you know, that there are ways in which the solicitor-client relationship can be affected by, you know, the actions of a lawyer or the actions of a client, and that in order to maintain the kind of zone of protection for the advice that I give, you know, that is a concern that we, you know, will surface with clients when appropriate.

39industry? Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, you're right. There's no— the idea of assembling a team of competent individuals to tackle a problem is— that's not unique to litigation or even to technology. But there are some interesting parallels there where you, in a technological context or in a startup context, there are pretty clearly defined roles that you need to fill. There are technical needs for a project in that world where you can have 10 smart people, but you need the one who can code in Python to do this particular task. Or you have 10 parts of smart people, but you need somebody with project management chops to be able to bring the project to the finish line.

40And I should say that part of my thinking around this comes from the fact that I lived in San Francisco during the kind of first dot-com bubble and bust. And a lot of my work now is in the technology sphere. In law, I think that there's— maybe some of the roles or the skill sets aren't as crisply delineated. We tend to, as litigators at, I mean, certainly at Lenczner's and absolutely at Paliare Roland, where I've been for the last 5 years or so, we select for generalists. We select for people who are able to roll with the punches in different kinds of advocacy environments. And so in some ways, you know, we, you know, because we, we really try to build, you know, generalist capabilities we're not as kind of tied to, you know, a person being, you know, really, really good at a particular issue because we think of ourselves as advocates first as opposed to specialists in a, in a particular subject matter.

42Yeah, no, I mean, we think about this a lot because I'm on the student hiring committee at Paliare Roland, and we just went through the articling recruit. And this is the kind of the time of year where this is, I think, fresh in our minds. And I think, so I mean, there's a bunch of different things that we look for in in candidates, either as students or lawyers. The things that we just talked about, you know, intellectual curiosity and, you know, a desire or a comfort level with being a generalist is certainly, you know, two of the more practical elements of it. But I think, you know, we've made a really concerted effort to make sure that we're also, you know, looking for candidates who bring a diversity of backgrounds and experiences to the firm.

43And that's for lots of different reasons, but, you know, a couple would be that, you know, we want our work and our workplace to be reflective of the society in which we find ourselves and which we live. And And also, we believe that that kind of diversity of experience actually makes us much better as litigators because we have different perspectives to bring to bear on difficult problems. And that's no different, I think, than the— I think that's of a piece with the kind of the appreciation for intellectual curiosity and kind of diversity of thought in our office. So those are some other things that I think we select for.

45I actually didn't article at Lenczner's.

47That's right.

49No.

51Sure, so I kind of coming into law school, I had heard about this thing called clerking, and I should say that, you know, this is not only was I new to Canada at that time, but there are no lawyers in my family and I had not— I was not particularly familiar with all of the kind of the different paths that you can take through a career in the law, but this idea of clerking was one that did seem to have some appeal to me. And I— so I applied for that basically at the same time as I was applying for summer positions. I think you apply in your second year, and And so I had told Lenczners when I came in as a summer student that I would be clerking for my articles.

52And yeah, it was— it's a bit of a leap of faith. I mean, there's— I think I know that there's a bit of a debate with particularly with 2L and 3L students who are currently looking at their options in front of them, where the concern is, you know, if I don't— if I if I leave my summer position without having secured an articling position, will that be there for me when I'm done clerking? Like there's a real concern about that because there's certainty if you can lock it in as a summer student. My thinking about it was, I really had two components. The first was that there's only one, there's a very narrow band where you can clerk in, at least in the current normative life cycle of a lawyer, and that's really in the year or two after you graduate.

53And so I thought, you know, that's a limited time opportunity. I will, you know, I'd really like to do it. I can only do it now. And I think the other thing, which I don't want this to come off the wrong way, because, but I think that this is something that lawyers and just people in general should should bring to their profession in their life, which is that, you know what, I'm going to bet on myself to be able to secure some sort of position when I'm out of the clerkship. And if I think, you know, I was thinking, sitting there thinking at the time, you know, this is a valuable experience that I'm not going to get at any other point, and you know, I don't think I would necessarily want to work someplace that doesn't value that kind of experience, especially that kind of, you know, direct advocacy experience, which I was looking for.

54And Lenczner's was great about it, you know, they were, you know, they couldn't, they weren't in a position, I think because of Law Society rules, to offer anybody jobs, you know, for the following year, but you know, it was, you know, I kept in touch with my colleagues there, I was you know, I was still, you know, very much, you know, kind of plugged into my friends and colleagues at the firm, and it worked out. So, you know, I would say that for students who are concerned about not clerking because of the lack of certainty about what happens on the other side, I have a small sample size, a sample size of one, but I think that it's I would do it again, you know, every time, I think, if I had the choice.

56Yeah, 5 years.

58Yes, I think maybe other times as well, but certainly in 2016, I think. Yeah.

60It's a hoot. You know, he's— Alan is you know, he's— we talk about intellectual curiosity, you know, I mean, he's, he's he's very smart and he's— his mind is very, very quick and he's able to, you know, like the best lawyers that you'll work with, you know, he, he has that that sort of ineffable quality of being able to zero in on on what's important in a case and to distill complicated issues down to Yeah, down to a narrative that's digestible for the audience in front of you. And yeah, no, he's terrific to work with.

62Well, yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, I have to say that throughout my career, I've been very lucky to have, you know, had lots of opportunities to work with that category of people I referred to at the beginning of our conversation, which are, you know, people who are smarter than you. And, you know, I've been very, very lucky to have those opportunities, whether they're at Lenczner's or at Paliare, and even lawyers who are not at either of those firms, but who I found myself, you know, working alongside on other files where there's, you know, multiple parties. You know, there's just lots— there have been lots of opportunities in the last decade to to learn from more senior members of the bar.

63And I've been frankly, you know, really impressed by how generous they've always been, you know, with me and with other, you know, folks who are more junior. And that really informs, I think, the way that I would like to practice, you know, that I hope to try to practice, you know, to the extent that I've been able to, you know, eke out any little insights or, you know, or tricks of the trade in the time that I've been practicing. I, you know, I try to be generous with that in terms of working with juniors in mentorship relationships with people inside and outside of my firm, you know, taking time to speak to people who have questions about the practice, whether they're, you know, pre-law or in law school or in, you know, at any stage of practice.

64And I really like that aspect of the job. It's the collegiality, the civility, the sense of shared purpose and desire to advance the profession, I think, is one of the most lovely aspects of being a litigator.

66Yeah, that's a good question because I think for me, at the beginning of my career, I did a lot of health law. I would say at its peak, probably 50% of my cases had some kind of health law component when I was at Lenczner's. And as time has gone on, I've kind of moved away from the professional regulatory work. And now I would say that the main components of my practice are civil litigation involving some sort of technology issue, commercial litigation that has, you know, that's of the of the standard form that you would see on the commercial list. So shareholder disputes, contract disputes, that sort of thing. And I would say that the other third is more kind of heterogeneous because it encompasses a bunch of different elements that have been consistent but don't necessarily relate to one another.

67So for example, I do a bunch of defamation work. And have done since I started practice. Part of that kind of came out of my interest in technology because people, especially 10 years ago, kept on saying, "Look, this person on the internet has defamed me, but I don't know who they are. What do I do about that?" And I could help talk them through or work them through this, the process of getting a Norwich Order. And finding out who the right party is for the defamation lawsuit. I do a whole bunch of work for smaller businesses and individuals as well. In some cases, it's, again, it's pre-litigation and we're dealing with something that's kind of a hybrid business dispute or potential litigation.

68I've been doing a lot of work over the last 5 years for private schools. You know, for schools that are dealing with, in some cases, you know, technology and cyberbullying issues, in other cases, you know, dealing with straight, you know, claims of negligence and other issues like that. And that's been really fascinating as well, to help, you know, educational institutions navigate whatever challenges are put in front of them.

70That's a good question. So I would say that these days, I do a lot of CPD stuff either by teaching or by administering programs. And so that, so for example, I just, I guess 2 months ago, finished doing the 12-Minute Civil Litigator program, co-chairing that with Cynthia Kuehl over at Lerners. And that was a terrific program in part because I got to work with members of the bench and bar on a dozen different topics and kind of not only listen to what they were doing, but also help them develop the presentations they were doing and looking at their written materials. So that's one aspect of it. When I am asked to do CPDs on other topics, that's a more targeted kind of CPD.

71But other than that, I do I can't say that I read the ORs cover to cover whenever they come out, but I keep abreast of the ORs. I monitor law Twitter for important new cases that come out. And also, I lean a lot on my colleagues, some of whom do a lot of that distillation, and then we'll circulate internally important new decisions, which we then talk about either via email, in person, or through other means.

73Sounds great. It's great to see you, Pulat. Thanks so much.