Erin O'Rourke
on Ridley College, her own practice in St. Catharines, and employment law
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Hello everyone, this is another episode of The Yunusov Question, a YouTube show and podcast about lawyers. And today I have a lawyer on the show, a really interesting one at that. So this lawyer started her own practice in the COVID year. Without further ado, Erin O'Rourke. How are you, Erin, today?
Good, thank you. Thanks for having me on here to talk about my experiences. I'm really excited.
Yes, it's a great pleasure to have you. Just as I said before we started the recording, I also started my own practice only quite a few years ago, and I'm always interested in people who do this and You know, of all years, you did, you did this in the COVID year, right? You did this in the COVID year. So you graduated from law school last year, correct?
In 2019.
So, okay, almost 2 years ago, and you went to Windsor, correct?
Yes, I did.
You know what really interested me in your background, your high school? Isn't this the favorite subject of everyone? Isn't this the most productive time in someone's life, high school, the high school years? So I'm looking at your high school record and I didn't hack into the Ontario school system or anything, it's on LinkedIn. So here's a list of activities and societies that you participated in at Ridley College, which was your high school, I assume. Yeah, prefect. I don't know what that is.
So it's kind of like our student government. Instead of having a student government, we have prefects, kind of like Hogwarts.
But okay, sure, that's really cool. But that's only number one of many, many more to come. So debate team, I understand that. Editor of Tiger Tribune, which I assume was the student newspaper.
Yeah.
Was it printed or was it fully online, by the way?
Printed. We had an on— I think we had an online version, but we also printed it.
Okay. Duke of Edinburgh Gold Level participant. What is that?
Yeah, so that's a program that I participated in, and you have to do a certain amount of service hours per year. And you have to go on expeditions as well. So I actually got to go dog sledding in high school in Algonquin. And I also was supposed to go skijoring, which is when you have one dog and a sled, but, or on skis, one dog and you're on skis, but there wasn't enough snow that weekend. So we ended up just going hiking, but had lots of really great experiences. Through that program.
Amazing. My high school was nothing like that. Battalion adjutant. I don't know if I'm pronouncing adjutant correctly. I don't usually use that word very much in my law practice or life. What is that? Something to do with the military?
Yeah. So we have a cadet program at my high school. And so I was the battalion adjutant, which was sort of in charge of keeping everything running with attendance and making sure everyone had what they needed, kind of like the behind-the-scenes person. And the big thing was we have Cadet Ball at our high school. We didn't have prom, so it was called Cadet Ball. So I would organize and run that.
Wow. Have you served in the military?
No, no military experience.
No military experience. First team field hockey and soccer player. First of all, I know what field hockey is.
Yeah.
And I know how it's different from ice hockey. And I know what soccer is. But what does it mean? What does it mean when you say first team player?
Right. So in our school, we were part of the case system. CAIS, so the Canadian Association of Independent Schools. And so they have first team is like the best team. And then you would have second team, it's just a tier under that. And then you might have like a U16 team for younger players. So I was on the first team for field hockey and soccer. And then I actually went on to play field hockey at McGill too.
For our listeners and viewers, you know, the list goes on and on. I'm not done here. So the next item on the list, choir. Are you a good singer?
No, definitely not a good singer. I think I just did that to hang out with my friends. My sister is the singer. I am not the singer.
Okay, so the next item, dance team member. You like dancing?
Yes, yes. I used to dance I did Irish dancing when I was little, and then I did tap, jazz, lyrical, and ballet. And then in high school, I had to sort of let go of my private dancing classes because I had a lot of other things on the go. So I was on the dance team at Ridley, and we did different musicals. So we did Cabaret and Hairspray when I was there. So that was the dancer in those too.
And the final number, musicals. Yeah, that's related to singing, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Okay, so the question— my question is, what career were you preparing yourself for in high school? Were you going to be like a 007 or like an international woman of mystery or, you know something? I don't know, it's, it's so wide and broad and And interesting. I've never really seen such a diversity of interests in high school.
Yeah, I did have a diverse set of interests. Actually, my dream job when I was going through high school was to become an ambassador. I thought that would be the coolest thing. And actually, on one of my trips for debating at the International Debating Competition, it was held in Ottawa that year. And they used to do homestays, so you would stay with local families during the competition. And I actually ended up staying with the ambassador from Holland to Canada's house, which was so neat. It was the coolest experience just getting to sit there and talk to them about their experiences, which was super cool. But slowly I kind of— so that's kind of why I went into international relations, international development.
And then I guess my interest kind of shifted away from wanting to be working within the government system to having a bit more free thought and being able to, to have my own opinions rather than just being the ambassador for the country's opinions.
Right. So you preferred to be your own spokesperson rather than the government spokesperson.
Yeah. Yeah.
And before we, before we talk about international relations, which is a really interesting subject to me, I want to ask you where Ridley College actually is located.
Yeah, so it's located in St. Catharines, Ontario, and the reason I went there was because my mom and dad taught there. My dad still teaches there, and we actually were the housemasters. Well, I wasn't, my parents were the housemasters.
This totally sounds like Harry Potter at this point.
Yeah, it does, it does. So they were the housemasters and we lived in a house that was attached from our living room. There was a door that opened to all the middle schoolers. And so my parents looked after the grades 5 to 8. And so that was— I lived on campus until I was 12 and then we moved off campus, but I kept going to school there. My dad still teaches there. And works in the middle school, so I'm still kind of connected to the school, but it was a really neat and unique experience for sure.
You had the coolest childhood. Are you originally from St. Catharines?
Yeah, yeah, I was born, born and raised in St. Catharines.
Yeah, I've been there a few times. My friend used to live there.
Yeah, it's a nice city. I like it.
Yep, cheap real estate. That's all Toronto people are interested in, by the
way. Yeah, it's getting up there. It's trickling down a little bit down the highway.
Oh yeah?
Starting to feel the prices go up a bit, but definitely nowhere close to Toronto market.
So with your dream of becoming an ambassador, you went into an international relations program at McGill, which is a fantastic international relations program and a fantastic university. I think this is something that you and I have in common. I had my undergrad was in international relations.
Oh, nice.
And I also got a postgraduate degree in international relations, so I'm over-schooled. Was your undergraduate program everything you thought it would be? Because you never became an ambassador. Let's just jump to—
yeah, that's true—
to the end here. So what happened?
I guess my opinion sort of changed as I was going through. My degree. I guess I will caveat that and say I wanted to be an ambassador or work for the UN. That was like my dream job, was working for the UN. And so going through the program, just learning more just my opinions changed, I guess. And I was actually considering doing a master's or doing more studies in the area, and I was at that classic decision of law school or more master's research, and I ended up actually deciding to do law school instead.
Is law school a natural next step after the International Relations program? You're not the only person on this show, by the way, who did this.
Yeah, I know, I don't know if it's the natural next step. I was definitely probably leaning towards kind of continuing my research, and I thought that it would be really interesting to, to do some more research. But I actually ended up talking to one of my professors who I really admired, and we had a very interesting conversation about what that would mean and what kind of career opportunities there would be after a master's versus what kind of career opportunities there would be after law school. So I decided to to continue with the law school path.
Describe your interest in international relations during your undergraduate program. Was it— did you have a particular focus? I see that you mentioned 4 languages on LinkedIn.
Yeah.
And let me tell you, I'm not teasing you, but I have an analogy here. So the thing about me is I have a lot of books at home. And if you ask me about almost any book, I will say, "Oh yeah, I started reading that book." So I start reading a lot of books, you know, and I actually have the same thing about languages too. I like dabbling in languages. So tell me about your interest in languages. Is it because of your international relations? Program or is it something else? Arabic, French, Spanish? Very interesting.
Yeah, so at Ridley I took French and Spanish and in grade 10 I actually lived in Spain for 3 months with a host family and I would say I was almost pretty fluent in Spanish at that point and I'd say pretty comfortable in French as well. And I believe I took advanced French and Spanish when I was in high school and did pretty well in languages then. I slowly started to lose my Spanish a little bit because I haven't been practicing it, but in Montreal when I was at McGill, I did continue to take French. Now that's also kind of slipping a bit too because I haven't kept up those two languages. When I was in third year of undergrad, I studied abroad in Israel for 4.
5 months. I was— another one of my areas of study was Middle East, and so I studied abroad at Tel Aviv and really got to get a deeper dive into the conflict there and learn more about that history. And so when I was there, I also took Hebrew and Arabic, but I wouldn't say I have retained much of that. I could describe an apartment in, in one of those languages, maybe, but that's about it now.
Well I would say, using my book analogy, you didn't just start those books. You're way on your way to past, past the midpoint, I would say, because if you were ever proficient in Spanish in In my experience, I speak several languages, right? And I wasn't even born in Canada, so my first language isn't even English. In my experience, elementary proficiency, which is what you said about your command of Spanish on LinkedIn, it's when I watch a few Polish videos on YouTube and then, you know, a couple of hours later I have elementary proficiency in Polish. Right, so this is definitely not elementary proficiency what you just described. So to me it sounds more like intermediate at least.
And also in my experience, yeah, even when you lose some language command or skills, they come back so fast once you start practicing. So no one is even going to notice that,
yeah,
that you lost some. You're going to gain it back so quickly. So, yeah, all
right.
That's really great. Not a lot of people in North America speak so many languages. I really admire it when people speak so many languages and also are well traveled, and not even in, you know, the most— the easiest parts of the world as well. Very interesting. So, but law school is nothing like an international relations program, right? Were you shocked or was it a comfortable ride? Windsor?
Yeah, so when I was deciding to go to law school, I didn't think I was going to be a lawyer. I didn't think I was going to write the bar exam. I thought, okay, I have studied problems with international relations and international development for the last 4 years, let's find some solutions. And so I really thought that I would go to law school and I would figure out all of the solutions and, and find the tools and all the the right answers would be there. And so I was hoping I could use those tools and then hopefully have like an international career. But when I got to law school, I really started to build an interest in employment law and immigration law and different areas that are more domestic.
And I slowly kind of shifted away from wanting an international career to wanting to do stuff in the community.
You graduated in 2019, if I'm not mistaken, right?
Right, yes.
And when you graduated, of course, you didn't know that we're going to have a pandemic the following year, right?
Right.
Just checking. So what went through your mind as you were graduating? What were you What were your plans? What were your expectations as a law school graduate? So did you finally decide to write a bar exam, right? Were you going to do the articling? What was the strategy there?
Yeah, so the previous summer I had done my 2L recruit. So I already knew from May or June 2018 that I was going to have articling. I decided on articling at Simpson Wigell in Hamilton. It's an all-service firm, and I really enjoyed my interviews with them and really enjoyed the process. So I was very much looking forward to doing articling. I had at that point decided that I was interested in practicing employment and immigration, and so I was signed up to write the bar exam. I graduated, wrote the bar exam, and then I started the first 10 months or so in the traditional articling position. And then when COVID hit, we had about 2 and a half months left of articling, and it was kind of crazy at that point.
No one knew what was happening. All of our friends were kind of messaging each other saying like, is there any way we can lose our articling position? Are we going to get called to the bar on time? What's happening with the call to the bar? It was kind of a moment of a lot of anxiety because no one knew what was going to happen. I'm very fortunate that my law firm was able to let us finish articling and really let us continue right on track, so that was really helpful and, and helped us keep on track. But again, unfortunately, just because of the uncertainty at the time, that was only 2 months into the pandemic.
No one knew how long this was going to last. No one— I did not expect it to last until now. I was still in a little bit of denial. So there wasn't any hireback opportunities at that time, and I know a lot of other friends at different firms were facing similar situations.
You know, you're not the only one. I remember telling my friends in March that this was going to be over by end of April last year. I was so sure, you know, I thought, how can it be? I mean, it's not fair to me that, you know, it's never happened in 100 years. And why does it have to happen during my lifetime? Right. So it's like, it's so unfair and I'm so important.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
You know, the, the, and of course I was wrong, and I think a lot of people were wrong, but you didn't just recover from the this common failure to predict the future. You also started your own practice. So what happened there? Tell us the story.
Yeah, so that wasn't something I was really considering. I believe it was, I think, 2 days, 2 days before what I call the world shutdown. I remember it as Rudy Gobert touching all the microphones and then the world shut down. That's how I will remember it. But I believe it was 2 days before that. I was out for lunch. With one of the partners at the firm and we were discussing future opportunities and then the world shut down and everything changed, right? So I wasn't thinking about going out on my own that wasn't really on my radar. But as I was starting to look up positions available, it was pretty sparse at the time and I knew I had student debt to pay and that my bills would keep coming and I know that CERB was available but it was a pretty small amount to survive on for sure.
So I looked into, okay, how much would my bar fees cost if I just cover it for a little while and I just do some advice here and there? And then as I did more and more research into that, I realized that it wasn't as crazy as I thought it would be to start my own firm and decided to just go for it.
I'm looking at your firm's website right now. Yeah, it's to the right of the camera, so I'm going to turn my head. And I'm really impressed with your website. So I started my own. Well, it's true. And let me tell you, I know what I'm talking about because I've had my own practice for almost 10 years, and I went through several iterations of my website. I'm also a former computer programmer before law school, right? So I'm really technically skilled. I did my own website myself, but I'm also interested in marketing. So I'm telling you this quite frankly, and I think with the appropriate gravitas, I think your website is great.
Thank you.
But what I'm interested in, so when I started my law firm, my own practice in 2011, my website was terrible. I just quickly put it together and I didn't really know much about calls to action, you know, all these buttons that let you call and buttons that let you submit a form because that would signify a conversion using the marketing speak, right? And maybe also some Google Ads are running, I don't know. So it's obvious that you, have some marketing, you put some marketing thought in your website. So tell me how you did this. You started your practice only a few months ago,
right?
And you said that you didn't expect to start your own practice, you didn't plan for it, yet we have a really good professional-looking website that obviously was done with marketing in, in mind. Tell me the story.
Yeah. So as I was sort of starting to think about doing this my uncle is my financial advisor. And so I called him and we sort of talked through the numbers and figured out how we would do that. But he's also been a serial entrepreneur himself and And so he was pretty much my advisor throughout everything. And just so happened that he is great at making websites and helping me through that. So while I did a lot of the work on the website, I would call him up often at 11:00 PM saying, "Help! I lost something. Please help me." And he would be there to help me through fixing any problems. And would kind of suggest, you know, he's the one who had the idea for the call button and sort of talking me through that.
So I have to give a lot of credit to my uncle who helped me through that. My cousin, his daughter, also designed my logo. So one night I was just kind of talking to her and I said, oh, I'm thinking about starting my own law firm. And she just sketched something up and showed it to me and I was like, oh my gosh, that looks so cool. And then she built it out for me and sent me all the colors so that I could incorporate those same brand colors throughout the website and all my social media. And so I don't have any formal marketing training. I just kind of looked online to see what other firms are doing.
Looked at different blogs on how to build websites and really just tried to figure it out as I went. And it became almost an obsession. So after dinner, I'd go upstairs, figure out what I was doing that night and on the weekends, just chipping away and building at it. But it was such a fun part of the process. I really enjoy those memories. Of getting everything off the ground.
Yes, and you did an amazing job.
Oh, thank you.
I'm looking at your website and I want to talk a little bit about your services, the services that your law firm provides. First of all, I understand you haven't incorporated. You're acting in your own personal capacity, right?
Correct.
Okay, so I'm looking at the list of services And it includes employment, immigration, litigation, tenancies, legal coaching, and notary public. So what is the split between litigation and non-litigation work in your practice?
Yeah, so I would say the majority of my files are employment related, and some of them overlap between employment and immigration. And I would say about 25-30% of those files are active litigation files right now, and a lot of those in the employment context. I do have some active commercial litigation files as well, and I'm really enjoying the wide range of different areas that I'm practicing right now. But each practice area was picked specifically either because I have a passion or knowledge of that subject area. So for example, someone came to me with a real estate transaction, I'm happy to refer them out, but that's not something I know how to do and I don't want to spend the time learning how to do that.
I'd rather hone skills that I have and in the areas of practice that I enjoy.
When you say that litigation is a fraction of your practice, do I understand it correctly that you do employment litigation but you also do employment advisory work or drafting or, or similar employment work that is not litigation-related, correct?
Correct. Yes. So if someone's starting a position and needs a contract reviewed, or they're considering leaving a position, they need to review their competition clause, non-competition clause, or if on the other side, on the employer side, dealing with terminations properly, hiring contracts, independent contracts, all that sort of stuff. So it's kind of split down the middle. And that's kind of what attracted me to employment law is you kind of get both sides of the spectrum there.
In your experience, which I know is limited to several months at this point, what is the fastest growing area of practice for you?
For me, it would be employment law. I do get a lot of phone calls for tenancy issues, especially right now with COVID but those tend to be sort of one-off questions. A lot of employment work is coming in right now. Again, I think because of COVID and a lot of employers and employees are a bit concerned about what their rights and responsibilities are at this time. So I'm definitely finding that to be a large portion of my practice.
Explain what legal coaching means and
why.
Why? I've never seen that as an area of practice on any lawyer's website. So let's talk about that a little.
Yeah, so in law school, there's the National Self-Represented Litigants Program, and that's run by Julie McFarland out of Windsor Law. And so that was very much top of mind when we were at law school, was learning about the access to justice gaps and acknowledging that there's a lot of people who need legal services but can't afford full retainers. So the legal coaching is for people who can't afford to retain a lawyer for the full trial, but maybe want to kind of do unbundled services for certain portions of the, of the process. So for example, I can help with drafting the claim. And then maybe they want to do negotiations on their own, or I can step in at a certain point of the litigation when they need help, but they do the beginning parts on their own, sort of to make it a bit more affordable and assist them through the legal process.
I know that you practice law in Hamilton, or rather you had an articling job in Hamilton. So Hamilton is much bigger than St. Catharines. St. Catharines is a fairly small town. What is it like to start a practice in a really small town and to practice law in a small town?
Yeah, I really enjoy getting to serve clients in my home community again. It's really interesting to be able to come back after so many years away at school and be able to, to bring my skills and services to the local community. I think that now with COVID it's made virtual services a lot easier. So while I do assist a lot of people in St. Catharines, it's expanded to other regions as well. So I can easily hop on a call with someone from Hamilton or Toronto or elsewhere in Ontario and assist them virtually over Zoom or a phone call. So it's interesting to be practicing in a small town right now because it's not the traditional brick and mortar setup where I'm just serving clients in that vicinity.
The virtual option really broadens the horizon there.
Knowing what we know about changes that took place in our court system since last summer, and those changes were, I think, nothing short of revolutionary. In my long, fairly long experience, I didn't expect this to happen for another 10 years. The bottom line is you don't need to go to the courthouse anymore, right? The bottom line is you don't even need to You don't need to send anyone to the courthouse anymore.
Right.
That's, that's 2. 3, you don't need to see clients in person anymore. One of the big reasons to see clients before was to commission affidavits. Not necessary anymore to do it in person.
Right.
So knowing all of this and knowing that it doesn't matter where you are right now for your practice of law, you might as well be on a beach. In Florida. Well, don't, right? Not right now. But you know what I mean.
Yeah.
What is stopping you with your much smaller cost base compared to Toronto? I'm making an assumption here. I think it's a sound assumption. What is stopping you from competing with Toronto employment lawyers?
Right.
If anything. And why even— you're not, you know, to me you're not a St. Catharines lawyer. To me, this concept of a town lawyer or a locale lawyer, St. Catharines lawyer, Hamilton, it's on the way out.
Yeah, I agree.
So, so what is stopping you today from competing with Toronto employment lawyers, which who probably charge more than you.
Yeah, that's true. I think that I see that also happening. Sometimes I see people wanting people to be lawyers to be from their area. Sometimes when I'm, I'm in a bunch of different groups that that sort of send referrals out and often sometimes lawyers will ask, oh, well, where are, where's the client? Where are they? But I think that that's kind of, as you said, becoming a way of the past now that there's really no need to meet people in person. And I think I've found that my clients are really enjoying that as well. I had a client who called me and she said, this is great. I'm meeting with my lawyer in my leggings.
And I'm just sitting at home, you know what I mean? She was loving it. She's like, I don't have to get dressed up, I don't have to find parking, I don't have to come and take a big chunk of my day, I can just call and it's done. So I think that that sort of locale is going to change, but I think for now, as I'm sort of building up my reputation, I'm kind of trying to focus on becoming known in my area for employment and immigration law. And sort of as I build up that reputation, be able to compete more with the Toronto lawyers. But again, I may have lower costs, but they also have established brands and clientele already.
So I guess we'll see how that goes.
That's right. But I'm not suggesting competing with lawyers. From a different category. There is a hierarchy of lawyers, and hierarchies are not always bad. Sometimes they stand for quality or experience, sometimes. But I'm talking about competing with Toronto lawyers from the same category as you, right? So recent calls, more junior lawyers. Also in this regard, but you know what, I think nothing should stop you from competing with anyone, by the way, even with the lawyers with the highest levels of experience. Because sometimes files are more fit for someone with fewer years of experience because of the cost factor, right? So, but here's a question for you. Because of the technology, you don't have to, you're not tied to a particular location anymore when you see clients or when you file in court or when you serve other lawyers.
Location doesn't matter anymore. Everything is electronic. But it also means that other lawyers can farm work out to you,
right?
Very easily now. Right. So, and, and I think it could make business sense for, let's say, lawyers in several tiers higher than you are in experience to consider shipping work off to you. You could be the offshore lawyer for Toronto lawyers where costs are very high. Have you considered something like that? Do you have any experience with this? Tell us.
Yeah, so I have done some work like that for more senior lawyers in Toronto, which has been a great experience because not only do I get to learn from the lawyer, they also just pay me a fraction of the fee of what it would cost them to, to bill out to the client. So it's a great learning opportunity for me, too. And the lawyers that I've worked with have been so great at giving me feedback and walking me through the process so that I'm able to help my clients further down the line and be able to provide solid work for those lawyers as well. So I definitely see that as a great opportunity, especially for new lawyers, because we don't have that built-in mentorship and the built-in seniority that the traditional law firm has.
Where do you see yourself in 10 years, or does it make absolutely zero sense to ask a question like that in the COVID year?
I know, I am one who loves my planner, and I love looking forward, and I usually have things planned out so far in advance. And when COVID hit, all those plans sort of just kept coming off the calendar, and it was kind of scary to see all the structure that I built up kind of disappear. So I usually would say, okay, I have a 5-year plan, this is what I want to do, this is what I want to be like, but I'm also learning to be a bit more flexible with that, especially with COVID And, and you never really know how things are going to play out. But in the future, I would love to kind of grow my practice a little bit more to have some support, because right now it's just me doing everything, which I really enjoy right now, but I'm sure the glimmer of it will fade in a little while after, after the novelty wears off.
But I would love to be able to bring on articling students in the future, especially articling students who are considering going out on their own. I think that would be a really neat experience to be able to train future lawyers. So that's something that I'm definitely looking forward to down the line.
Yeah, nobody likes filling out those Form 9As.
Yeah, no.
To transfer $100 from the trust account to the general account, you have to put 3 signatures there, and they're all going to be yours because you're the only person.
Exactly.
Yeah, guarding the fort. Look, it's been a true pleasure talking to you, Erin. I really enjoyed it. I am inspired by you, and you sort of rekindled this passion and romance of starting things up that I remember vaguely from 10 years ago. I really appreciate it, and it's even more inspiring because you did all of this at a time that is much, much harder in a sense because of the pandemic. But in a sense, I mean, I wish we had electronic filing, right, in 2011. I still have this grudge when my motion records were returned from the court because the signature wasn't original, the signature on the affidavit. You know, I still remember that.
But other than that, I I really enjoyed talking to you. I really appreciate that you came to this show and talked to our viewers and listeners. Thank you so much, Erin.
No problem. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.